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Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

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Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#431

Post by karatestomp »

state_less wrote: post #417
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds a lot like a post-facto apologist slant. Sure you can 'explain them' but everybody hears them where their mind is at now. And for most folks, especially junior monks just starting out, they might sound wanky too.

I think they are supposed to be 'esoteric and wanky' for the beginner, like 'mu' and 'one hand clapping' - even for the eastern audience. The idea, if I understand it correctly, is to get your mind hung up on a solution until you either get frustrated, or find your way out of the conundrum. I hope I didn't do any harm here. I was hoping to share some of what I thought was pretty mind bending.

Even for the first story in Gateless Gate it's probably intended that the reader know what "mu" means and the orthodox Zen Buddhist position on who/what does or does not have Buddha-nature—and WTF "buddha-nature" is—before tackling it. Those parts aren't supposed to be mysterious.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#432

Post by Minor49er »

"I Am a Strange Loop" by Douglas Hofstadter. It explores an idea of consciousness as being a side effect over neurological loops becoming recursive. It also gets into the idea that your conscious mind can partially blend into another's. He does this by talking about his feelings of day to day life after his wife passed away. There's a dense math chapter, but the rest is pleasantly written

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#433

Post by marnett »

Hmmm. Great question. What was the most "mind bending" moment in cinema? The ending to The Sixth Sense or the trial and conviction of Harvey Weinstein? When I think of mind bending I think of the thoughts and ideas that break one out of a previous believed framework of thinking. Things that have a lasting impact on how they see and view the world.

"The Bible" (New International Version)

“Capitalism and Freedom” by Milton Friedman

“Imperial Ambitions” by Noam Chomsky

“Evolution and Religion: A Dialogue Book" by Michael Ruse

“The Value of Free Thought” an essay by Bertrand Russel

“The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism” by Daniel Bell

“Stalking the billion-footed beast” an essay by Tom Wolfe

“Propaganda” by Edward Bernays

“Bonfire of the Vanities” by Tom Wolfe

“Walden” by Henry David Thoreau

“30 Satires” by Lewis H. Lapham

“Cat’s Cradle” by Kurt Vonnegut

Above, in chronological order, are the books that changed my life. It is weird looking at that list, as each book is tied to such a fundamental shift in my life. They each taught me about something fundamentally new and different. Faith, spirituality, economics, thought, power, society, nature, technology. It should appear obvious by looking at the list, there are plenty of opposite pairs, dipole books if you will, present. Bending one’s mind has multiple phases, first when one goes from knowing nothing to knowing something. Depending on what was learned, this can definitely be mind bending. But not everyone rides the second phase, going from knowing something to learning that it wasn’t the whole thing, or wasn’t the only way to interpret such a thing, or wasn’t entirely correct, or perhaps, in our largely subjective world, is not true at all.

Certain books can only speak to certain people at certain times of their life. It’s just the beauty of the whole thing. And to the core of this thread, one actually has to believe something, truly and passionately, in order for them to then have their world view bent and turned on its head. This is the hardest lesson that many won’t really ever opt to face. The core of truth, learning, and wisdom comes when you finally read (and thus think) something that takes a belief you previously held as passionately true, unalterably true, core-to-identity true, and made you wrestle with the reality that it may, perhaps, not be. That’s the biggest mind f* of them all.

One’s entire worldview is constructed of things they believe. But those things you believe come, for some more than others, from what one read, purposefully or not. Seek books that challenge what you believe and enjoy the ride.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#434

Post by dkural »

libertine wrote: post #283
dkural wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to like Herman Hesse, and gradually realized the straight line from Hesse to Nazism. His distinct lack of human understanding is what bothers me at core. His female characters barely exist except as mirages in the eyes of men, and his male characters are little more than intellectualized brains. It's the type of book one likes as a teenager / young adult and realizes is BS later.

I've only read Siddhartha, and it didn't paint the author like you've done it. Maybe I've completely misunderstood the book, but my key take away is that : true enlightenment (and by enlightenment you can say, true knowledge), only comes from life experience. And that takes quite some human understanding, specially when we've grown to value information and theory, to the point where we build a perceived complete unde…

I respect your view. I enjoyed reading Hesse when I did; read 3 of his books; SteppenWolf, Glass Bead Game, Siddhartha. There are many nice ideas in them. I simply don't adore his writings the way many do, however. My views changed as I changed.

Here's a quote from the New Yorker:

"Many young men, in particular, see a glamorous reflection of themselves in the typical Hesse hero—a sensitive, brooding man who cannot find a place for himself in ordinary society. This figure might live in India in the age of the Buddha, like Siddhartha, or in Germany in the Jazz Age, like Harry Haller, or in the Middle Ages, like Goldmund in “Narcissus and Goldmund.” Whatever the setting, his path will generally feature the same landmarks. He will be plucked out of his childhood surroundings and sent to an élite school, where he will suffer deeply. He will rebel against conventional ideas of success and refuse to pursue any kind of career, combining downward mobility with spiritual striving."

Siddhartha, while an enjoyable read, confuses/"borrows" eastern religious concepts to turn it into "follow the beat of your own drum, man!".

This has real world consequences: Hesse justified his taking the "middle ground" between Nazism vs its opponents by his "politics of detachment".. you know, because he is above society, quoting from JewisPress.com:

"Hesse’s failure to publicly condemn the Nazi Party and the fascist regime was due, in large part, to his “politics of detachment” – his policy of viewing the war fever infecting Germany from a distance and his general aloofness to the deadly struggle during the 1930s and 40s as he publicly sought to occupy the “middle ground” between the Nazis and exiled German writers.

Early in the war, Hesse published an essay in which he clearly applied his “middle ground” standard, expressing and anticipating German victory but also insisting that humane values be protected. Even this bland caveat earned him everlasting hostility from the German public."

I am not claiming Hesse was a Nazi, and privately he was more anti-Nazi than anything else. His wife was Jewish.

Hesse's heroes are more Ubermensch that view regular society as cattle, than harmless Hippies.

I also tend to think the US Hippie movement of the 60s as a philosophy of selfishness..(yes, I'm aware of anti-war origins etc.) so perhaps there's more to our disagreement. My politics lean left fwiw.. social democrat.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#435

Post by smolder »

fit2rule wrote: post #134
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because someone writes a long analysis of camera work, color correction and sound recording in Shawshank Redemption, doesn't mean that they don't believe that there are emotional and philosophical aspects to the movie also. Just that the object of that work was a particular kind of analysis.

In this case, it is dangerous since a lot of the moral fibre that prevents Dawkins from calling for an all-out eradication of any human being that has the "belief in God" gene, simply won't be there for future generations' benefit. And that is why I find his crusade against religions he despises so dangerous. Culture devolves unless it is replenished with enlightenment - Dawkins takes no responsibility for that, sinc…

I'd say organised atheists are responsible, rather than organised atheism. Minor difference, maybe, but the latter implies some inextricable link where there isn't one.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#436

Post by james_s_tayler »

whytai wrote: post #383

Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. This book makes every bit of life advice you receive afterwards feel shallow. It feels like a reference to western thought. It's also very well translated and reads very easily, and is very short. I read about a chapter every morning when I feel motivated, and certain passages really stick in my head. It also helps to read whenever you feel overcome with emotion because of something.

I found it pretty repetitive and not that inspiring. Except for a few really cool passages that were more like diamonds in the rough.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#437

Post by gfody »

nicbou wrote: post #211
mjberg01 wrote: post #127

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" by Robert Pirsig takes you deep into the philosophy on what is 'quality'. Once you see it you can't unsee it. A powerful excerpt from the book: 'So the thing to do when working on a motorcycle, as in any other task, is to cultivate the peace of mind which does not separate one’s self from one’s surroundings. When that is done successfully then everything else follows natura…

Despite all the praise it got, I really struggled with that book. I hated it so much that I had to check if I didn't pick the wrong book by accident. I found that it's a very polarising book. It's life-changing for some, and garbage for others. There were a few insightful passages, but most of the book was pretentious rambling. It was difficult to understand what the author was even trying to say, with his head so fa…

> Quality is the ability of a thing to do its job.

He was an English teacher trying to judge the quality of rhetoric though, which doesn’t have a job other than to be quality.

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#438

Post by gitrog »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #429
gitrog wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the throes of your rant at someone making a perfectly accurate observation you seemed to have made a false dichotomy. The options aren't just that everyone on HN is sexist nor that women aren't interested in writing books on mind bending concepts, but another reason, as has been mentioned above, is that women for most of human history weren't allowed to write. From there it becomes rather obvious why there are les…

>is that women for most of human history weren't allowed to write. Isn't this sexism? Read my argument again. I literally said that the reason why there are more men then women authors on mind bending concepts is because of Sexism. We are in total agreement. I know of Ursula K. Le guin. If you read her biography you'll read about all the hardships she had to go through to get her work published. As a woman her books…

Okay, let me just say then that your tone is very, very confusing. What with the "Obviously, everyone here is a sexist. Wake up people!" It sounds like you were being sarcastic? Were you being sincere?

Re: Ask HN: Mind bending books to read and never be the same as before?

#439

Post by dkural »

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #418
dkural wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to like Herman Hesse, and gradually realized the straight line from Hesse to Nazism. His distinct lack of human understanding is what bothers me at core. His female characters barely exist except as mirages in the eyes of men, and his male characters are little more than intellectualized brains. It's the type of book one likes as a teenager / young adult and realizes is BS later.

Yeah, no one will agree with you here. Hesses work was banned by the Nazis. Your analysis is incorrect, and frankly, worthless.

It wasn't banned until 1943. Thank you for reading my comment.
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