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Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

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Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#171

Post by akvadrako »

goatinaboat wrote: post #36
akvadrako wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U stands for Universal The U is better understood as Unconditional. It doesn't go to everybody or everything, but it doesn't get taken away if you stop working. These were used pretty much equally until about 2011, when the less accurate one started taking hold: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2004-04-11%202...

It doesn't go to everybody It has to, because one of the selling point of it is the minimal administrative overhead. In the U.K. we have armies of civil servants to administer our hideously complex welfare system. All of them and the costs of employing them have to go to make it affordable. The good news is that they too will get UBI...

It is minimal overhead. All you need to check is someone is a living citizen and their age, because children likely get less.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#172

Post by quotemstr »

fragmede wrote: post #170
bryanlarsen wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do those activities generate enough money, so that government collects enough taxes from you, to cover your UBI + all the other costs (roads, schools,...)? If not, you're still a net burden on society. The median person on UBI would probably be a net burden on society. The mean? Probably not. Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity was a side project. It'd only take a couple of similar projects to make all of UBI wo…

Framing people as possibly being "net burden" on society presumes that "the market", and economics, perfectly encodes the value of an activity to society, and that taxes are omnipotently levied against the activity. Conmen (Enron; Bernie Madoff) and people who squander inherited wealth (trust-fund babies; Paris Hilton) arguably have a negative contribution to society, but pay plenty in taxes. Does their existence as…

> Framing people as possibly being "net burden" on society presumes that "the market", and economics, perfectly encodes the value of an activity to society,

If not the market, then what? Why do you think resource allocation scheme X would be better than the market overall? Without prices, we're left with the people best at being loud demagogues deciding the application of society's limited resources. Is that really better? Has it ever worked to produce prosperity or happiness?

Yes, economic value reflects social value, and chasing profit produces social good. Every time somebody's rejected this principle, he's produced poverty and death.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#174

Post by hkai »

Seeing both sides of my family doing everything they can to scam the government and NGOs for benefits just so they can avoid going to work, I always think the UBI might only work as intended for perhaps 10% of the most highly motivated individuals among us.

If I had UBI, I'd quit my skilled and productive developer job and probably drive a taxi, because it's more satisfying, even though my contribution to the society will be much smaller and in a certain sense, my skills would be wasted. And I'd probably take half a year off on a beach every year.

Because of that, my tax contribution would be much smaller (probably zero), and the country would have less money to treat sick people, buy hospital equipment and build housing for the poor. That would worsen life outcomes for many people and will likely cause additional deaths.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#175

Post by hkai »

Drakar1903 wrote: post #106
101404 wrote: post #92

Open borders and UBI are mutually exclusive. There, I said it.

You're right. We gotta push for Global Universal Basic Income. Someone surely has "X% of people live on less than 5 dollars a day" stats available on hand. If it makes their lives better over there, they have less incentive to uproot their life to go over here.

What's the cost and how much I'd need to pay?

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#176

Post by luckylion »

andarleen wrote: post #169
luckylion wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany might be an example to look at this. We have welfare that's paid out wherever you live. It's conditional in so far that it's expected that you look for a job and aren't rich, but that's about it. It has a fixed money component (~400€/month) and covers rent (up to some amount that's set locally, depending on the local rent prices), utilities, health insurance etc directly. Therefore, if you're okay with the am…

I have to read more on how this works in Germany, but the idea of UBI would be that everyone would get 400 eur. I know that is not possible right now without taxing individual income even more, and as such my view is we should come up with tech we can tax. I dont have the specific silver bullet for how it could work, but would it be possible to tax every robot that replaces a human worker? Or tax anything that 10x’s…

> Or tax anything that 10x’s productivity in any field, but at a level where it still is very motivating for an investor to make that 10x investment by letting them keep 8x of the output?

That'd only work on monopolies where the company would actually have a 1000% margin. For most things, you'll invest in some great new automation, but so will your competition. Now you've both increased productivity and if you try to cash in your 10x profits, your competitor will simply take 5x profits, massively undercut your prices and you'll be gone very soon. Productivity gains will typically lead to lower prices, that's why meat, milk etc is dirt cheap these days, if we still had food prices like in the 50ies but with today's productivity, any secret illuminati meetings of the 1% would see a lot more people arriving on tractors ;)

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#177

Post by luckylion »

andarleen wrote: post #168
luckylion wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI doesn't mean we all get the same - it just means none of us starve, and can live with dignity no matter what we do ...or don't do. By that definition, most of Europe has UBI and then some ;) > Is it really that bad a thought that the goal of tech is to finance a society where no one is left without food and basic, decent, shelter? That's a very US-centric view. Food insecurity is a solved problem in Europe and…

These all are very interesting points, but I think most are centred around unemployment benefits, rather than UBI. This pandemic made me realise how fortunate we are for living in Europe - literally any part of the eu, has done a better job at helping people and making sure they dont starve, compared to the US. Thats a great observation! Europe is indeed very close to UBI. The only issue is it finances it through mor…

> Apply the same to all sorts of manufacturing, agriculture and anything else that can be automated.

I see where you're coming from, but that only works with stable prices. Prices aren't stable. Technology, automation lowers prices (or increases quality). Your 2020 BMW is nothing like the 1970ies BMW, and had you wanted a 2020 BMW in 1970, you would've had to pay outrageous sums of money.

> TL;DR I guess I have a few random ideas about an ideal world where we use tech for building a star trek like society, where basics are no longer an issue and all we do is advance our society.

I believe the general issue is that it wouldn't be an issue at all if everyone was like you. The harsh reality is that most people are not. It's like anyone that read Kant and who felt the categorical imperative resonate with them, and they go "why do we need laws? I wouldn't act in a malicious way". We don't have laws to regulate their behavior, we have laws for the vast majority who didn't read Kant or don't care about what would happen to society if everybody acted like they do.

You likely live in somewhat of a bubble, your friends are usually similar to yourself etc. I have no doubt that a lot of your well-meaning ideas would work great with them. I also have little doubt that they won't with the population at large, because they are very different. It's like a bunch of people who read books talking about information dispersal, not keeping in mind that a large chunk of the target audience is functionally illiterate.

> Dont worry about people immigrating to the us - the very workers we automate out of jobs dread us highly skilled immigrants, as they dint see the benefits from our work - more than taking pictures with shiny new iphones - and they want us to stay out, by voting for Trump.

It's the high-skilled workers in the US who compete with high-skilled immigration, it's a benefit for the low-skill workers, as we'd usually bring know-how and taxes, create jobs and generally improve society. The low-skill workers vote for Trump to stop low-skill immigration, they don't mind high-tech billionaires like Elon Musk or Peter Thiel.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#178

Post by sfg »

If UBI allowed me to live my life, which is not extragent, then I would not do 'nothing', but I doubt I would do anything that raised tax revenue. I pay more tax than the median tax payer in the country I live in. I would be a net loss to the tax income of the country.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#179

Post by spugody »

koonsolo wrote: post #146
spugody wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We (Europe) already do give people a certain amount per month. We give them healthcare, pensions and various other tax breaks depending on needs. It is all very complicated. The idea is to replace the complication with a simpler UBI in as close to a cost neutral manner as possible.

UBI is basic income. What you describe will not bring working people basic housing and basic food. Pensions and unemployment incomes are only a small part of population, you will need to pay everyone . Taking money from healthcare and putting it in my pocket so I have to pay for it myself doesn't bring me much income you know.

Yes, it is clear that universal basic income means everyone gets it. If my post wasn't clear, it should be now. Thanks.

Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World

#180

Post by angmarsbane »

Why not just pay people more for the work they're doing? Why not value work again? It seems to me that the decrease in stress / increase in well-being from basic income is the ability to afford shelter, food, some leisure etc. without intense stress.
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