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4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

marctenbosch.com

91–100 of 101 posts

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#91
post #81

The comparison to children playing with blocks makes me wonder: If you spent long enough playing with these 4D toys, would you develop a deeper intuition for the 4th dimensional shape of the objects?

That would be a perfect application of VR.

I’m sure most of us could learn a visceral understanding of 4D if we could push and twist 4D objects.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#92
How does one model 4D gravity? Consider the 3D to 2D analogy. If the 2D person lived on a planet, that would be a circle. Then 2 planets orbiting each other would appear to the 2D person as two line segments oscilating up and down (because the 2D person cannot see the entire circle, just the edge view). Based on the velocity of oscillation and the separation of the line segments, a 2D newton could come up with an analogous law of gravition with an inverse square relation. But if two 3d planets were orbiting transversely through the 2D plane of our inhabitants, the 2D person would see two separate line segments growing and shrinking although the line segments could maintain a constant distance of separation. The velocity of growing and shrinking would be changing even though their separation was constant. Extending this analogy to our universe makes me wonder if our calculation that the universe is expanding is just an illusion. Rather, at astronomical distances, our universe could be traversing 4 dimensions. And what we perceive as an accelerating expansion of the universe is just motion into the 4th dimension. And if we could travel into that dimension, we might be able to get to places that appear far away but are actually not. Though it sounds far fetched, it also might explain the stuff that is postulated to happen at the quantum scale-where quantum fluctuations are postulated to occur. The only thing we would need to be able to do is to 'coordinate' the fluctuations of lots of adjacent voxels of space. And then we could wander through 4D space.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#93

I am genuinely surprised for a long time that I've not seen 4D monsters in films. It has been so obvious to me there's potential there. It would of course be a flat 2D projection of a 3D slice through a 4D creature, so it would look like a smoothly morphing between different creatures, and in and out of existence so we've sort of had morphing for a long while (since Willow, C. 1985) but... there's potential. In case…

You should read Spaceland by Rudy Rucker. It’s a hilarious 4D riff on Flatland. A venture capitalist in Silicon Valley gets harassed by a 4D monster called Momo

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#94

I am genuinely surprised for a long time that I've not seen 4D monsters in films. It has been so obvious to me there's potential there. It would of course be a flat 2D projection of a 3D slice through a 4D creature, so it would look like a smoothly morphing between different creatures, and in and out of existence so we've sort of had morphing for a long while (since Willow, C. 1985) but... there's potential. In case…

In the last episodes of TV show Legion, they bring in Monsters from another dimension (time). So it was not exactly 4D in spatial sense as is in this paper.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#95
post #81

The comparison to children playing with blocks makes me wonder: If you spent long enough playing with these 4D toys, would you develop a deeper intuition for the 4th dimensional shape of the objects?

Sort of, but not really. The problem is you don't have sufficient information to know what should happen.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#96
post #15
post #9

I'll ask any physicists out there. A 4th spatial dimension probably doesn't exist, right? Even if we couldn't perceive shapes across a 4th dimension, we would still perceive things moving through the 4th dimension like we see in 4D toys. In reality we don't ever see anything like this (spatially anyway). Is that correct?

If there were 4 spatial dimensions + 1 time dimension we would end up in an unstable universe. Ehrenfest (1917/1920) studied the hydrogen in n dimensions and concluded for n> 3 that neither classical atoms nor planetary orbits can be stable, because the inverse square law of electrostatic and gravity becomes an inverse cube law. When n > 3 there are no stable orbits to the two body problem: an incoming light body att…

But what if we had two dimensions of time?! What would that even mean?

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#97
post #9

I'll ask any physicists out there. A 4th spatial dimension probably doesn't exist, right? Even if we couldn't perceive shapes across a 4th dimension, we would still perceive things moving through the 4th dimension like we see in 4D toys. In reality we don't ever see anything like this (spatially anyway). Is that correct?

Obligatory "I'm not a physycist, but...". String theories require extra spatial dimensions (to total of 10, 11 or 26), but those dimension are so small and/or looping so that we cannot detect them. Other approach is to treat our 3D space as slice of higher dimensional space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Extra_dimensions String theories have a lot of problems (biggest ones is that they are currently unv…

> String theories...are currently unverifiable using experiments

Makes me appreciate that relativity and quantum mechanics are verifiable experimentally.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#99
post #11

It would be interesting to see how it would look with the 4D scenes properly projected instead of cross-sectioned. I mean that is how we get 3D scenes on our puny 2D displays; we don't generally do the sort of cross-sections for 3D like they show in the flat-land example except in some specialized applications. Of course cross-section is still valid method of visualization. I don't know enough about higher dimensiona…

Well, we get 3D scenes/projections on a 2D screen by being in a 3D world/context and looking at a 2D screen. With that I mean to say that I think (not sure) a 2D image of a 3D projection can only feel 3D if you're in a 3D world. This also means such a thing should be possible for living in a 2D space and then projecting a 2D world on a 1D screen. If you're going to play with 3D projections of 4D objects, then in orde…

Makes me wonder if the human brain if born into a 4D world would be able to function, or if fundamentally it is impossible for the brain to process a 4D word.

Re: 4D Toys: how objects bounce and roll in 4D – paper accepted to SIGGRAPH 2020

#100
post #54

I love 4D graphics. Many years ago, in my freshman year of college, I wanted to create a 4d space game, and spent about a year grinding out an OpenGL rendering engine. I taught myself the requisite mathematics and realized that my conception of hyperspace as operative in my game, was fundamentally wrong. So I moved on. Still have the code laying around, although I lost the Linux port I ginned up at one point. Really…

I'm curious, in what way was your conception wrong? Sounds like it could still be interesting.

my initial thought was that hyperspace would allow a _shortening_ of the distance traveled from point P0(x,y,z,q) to P1(x,y,z,q). Since I was _really_ into space combat games at the time... that would have been really cool!

However, - and this is obvious when you work through it - when you use Euclidean distance (https://mathworld.wolfram.com/Distance.html - see the General equation), the distance travelled increases, thus obviating a key part of my game, which was to "jump" through hyperspace to shorten the trip. I didn't care to rewrite math enough to make the game work out, and since I'd spent so much time learning math, graphics,and larger-scale program design, I was burnt out. It was a great experience.

One day I might return to the notion, but it'll be around the hyper-dimensionality experience, not as a combat game. I don't like the slice mode of 4D games qua the OP, I far prefer projections from 4D as a way to understand the 4D realm.

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