Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
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Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#72Where's the money for the UBI experiment coming from? There's no free lunch, folks...
Start my taxing the rich. Also consider the money saved from reduced bureaucracy around unemployment benefits.
The money spent on corporate bailouts the past few months would probably be enough to provide UBI for quite a long time.
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where do you think money comes from? Seriously, how do you think it's created?
It comes from taxes, borrowing and printing. Only one of those relates to the added value otherwise known as wealth creation. The other two ultimately make everyone poorer. The question is: for a given country, what proportion of the population can theoretically be supported by the efforts of those who pay those taxes. This isn't a moral judgement on the basic income idea; it's just required prior basic arithmetic fo…
idk, you tell me: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/bill-gates-...
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#74It only works for a relatively small group of people. Scaling it up to 100% of the population would result in inflation.
It depends, if you have some essential resource where supply is constrained then you might expect inflation. On the other hand goods that are readily available like food or oil shouldn't see any significant difference.
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quite consistently, at least in Canada and the US, welfare is claimed to cause dependency, lazyiness, and reduce the ambition of the receivers WHILE we are paying for it. I'm saying BOTH that it's good for people AND that it's affordable are still in dispute and that the claims are clearly not obvious.
Sure, and my argument is that proving that welfare recipients who temporarily received a greater subsidy than other welfare recipients self-reported greater levels of happiness than welfare recipients on less money does absolutely nothing to undermine arguments about welfare dependency. The arguments - with varying degreees of plausibility - are all of the form 'long term welfare dependency is unhealthy for society'…
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#76The experiment was terribly flawed in that it only addressed the unemployed, and it didn't affect the existing unemployment system for them, making incentives perverse for all taking part. The UBI was offered tax-free on top. It represents nothing like real life UBI and needs to be redesigned as a test.
For me the argument for UBI is very simple: it's a simpler version of the status quo in most countries in terms of administrative overhead that offers more freedom to individuals. Those are two good things IMHO.
It's precisely for this reason that it's controversial because conservatives on both side of the political spectrum consider the notion that people should do work (no matter how meaningless) part of their core values.
Communism was all about workers and probably the closest we ever got to having UBI in some countries. Work ethos is very much a core value. So the notion of rewarding people for not working is controversial in communist circles. Most would consider communism a failed experiment from an economic point of view because it also included notions of central planning, equally (low) wages for everyone, and little differentiation in terms of skills & value of those skills. I.e. equating the two would be a mistake.
Fiscal conservatives on the other hand argue for a small state and are perpetually worried about "who is paying for this".
The argument for UBI and against both points of view is that we already have it in the sense that most countries provide healthcare, housing, foodstamps, and other benefits for basically everyone, including the homeless people, the elderly, children, and many others that in any case are not part of the working population. Also, in many countries, the working population is shrinking in the sense that unemployment statistics exclude whole parts of the population that are effectively not considered to be working and are therefore not actually unemployed (children, students, married women looking after children, medically disabled people, retired people, long term out of job people, the homeless, etc.). We take care of all these people already and that costs money. It actually is a rather large part of the current budget of whatever country you are in. Where these programs fall short, inevitably it causes a lot of problems and misery. Also the collective programs we have for doing this are a combination of very expensive and inefficient. E.g. some countries spent more on unemployment bureaucracy and programs than on the actual benefits.
UBI is about acknowledging & formalizing the status quo that no matter what, you will have the means to take care of yourself at some minimum definable level. IMHO, it has the potential to vastly simplify things in the sense that it would remove the need for minimum wage, state pensions, etc. and the associated bureaucracy. So there's an upside in terms of less administrative overhead and vastly less complexity & risk for employers & citizens.
The existing system of benefits could be redefined on top of a UBI and would likely get a more optional character. To the point where you could privatize this; which I imagine might be a popular topic in the US and other places with a strong libertarian minded population.
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are three claims that the comment I replied to said are obvious; two claims are constantly disputed and one is regularly disputed. None are, therefore, obvious.
My point is that there are differences between a) what people self-report and what the outside world thinks about their situation and b) an isolated short-term experiment and a long-term domestic/global thing. If you won $1bn in the lottery, you'd be quite rich and, in so far that money can make you happy, probably also quite happy. If literally everybody won the lottery at the same time and got $1bn, you'd be back w…
I happen to believe they are but this study doesn't establish that; and we are missing a golden opportunity to do some real UBI studies with the billions in aid that are suddenly sloshing around.
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#78Meta: countless fiscal policy changes are made in weeks. But for UBI, decades of experiments and data-driven validation seem to be required. Why is it acceptable that UBI requires such huge burden of proof? Don't tell me that it's more radical than other reforms: when used as a replacement for welfare and other subsidies at comparable cost, it is pretty mild.
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#79Where's the money for the UBI experiment coming from? There's no free lunch, folks...
It comes from spending the money. If you don't understand that, then time to get the book and learn how the money system works https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07YM2K8F3
When someone spends money to buy a good or service, the money recirculates but the actual thing they've bought is consumed. If you pump up the supply of money by taking the same amount of money and recirculating it through the economy more, but without increasing the supply of goods and services, this means that the price of those things has to increase correspondingly just like if you outright printed a load of money and handed it out to everyone. Economically speaking, these two methods of increasing the money supply have very similar effects. (In practice, strong UBI is probably even worse than this if the idea is to make it feasible for people to not work, since the supply of goods and services will actually shrink and employers' labour costs will increase.)
Re: Results: Finland’s Basic Income Experiment Help Us Build the Post-Pandemic World
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
It comes from taxes, borrowing and printing. Only one of those relates to the added value otherwise known as wealth creation. The other two ultimately make everyone poorer. The question is: for a given country, what proportion of the population can theoretically be supported by the efforts of those who pay those taxes. This isn't a moral judgement on the basic income idea; it's just required prior basic arithmetic fo…
> The question is: for a given country, what proportion of the population can theoretically be supported by the efforts of those who pay those taxes. idk, you tell me: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/bill-gates-...