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My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

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Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#121

Post by ido »

ivalm wrote: post #99

I am curious what counts for “mid career”, he started coding ~6 years ago. Presumably he is in his 20s. Here him talking about leaving philosophy: https://www.philosophicalhacker.com/2014/04/22/why-im-glad-m... Edit: LinkedIn ~agrees with this estimate

I was also curious, as they didn't mention their age.

As the age of retirement is currently ~67 (depends on the country but unlikely to go down in the future) and we assume you start your career after college in your early 20s - let's say 22 - you get ~45 years of work.

Let's say the above is closer to a maximum than an average & "generously" go with a round 40 years of work; Then mid-career would be in your 40s.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#122

Post by nikanj »

ivalm wrote: post #99

I am curious what counts for “mid career”, he started coding ~6 years ago. Presumably he is in his 20s. Here him talking about leaving philosophy: https://www.philosophicalhacker.com/2014/04/22/why-im-glad-m... Edit: LinkedIn ~agrees with this estimate

Ageism in tech is well-established and widely reported. If you're too old for the game by the time you reach 40, your mid-career does indeed fall somewhere in your late 20s/early 30s.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#123

Post by smt88 »

ramraj07 wrote: post #108
smt88 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That team lead (and companies with similar thinking) need to learn that obsessive/workaholic devs are not more productive. If coding consumes your paid and free time, you're generally not cranking out new CRUD features requested by the marketing team. You're doing pet projects, learning new languages, or getting lost in bikeshedding, like writing a new JS framework because you think the current list sucks. That means…

Generalizations galore on both sides? There are probably as many 40hr Devs that just want to phone it in as there are effective ones. It's possible youve learned to weed out the former but they do exist. Similarly I'm probably one of those Workaholics, but I make an active effort not to waste time. However I do work with good effective 40hr devs and I try to make sure that we are all on the same velocity. The remaini…

> Similarly I'm probably one of those Workaholics

I was too, from the age of 16 to about 26. Burnout doesn't always happen quickly.

In my case, I was able to work 80-100 hrs/wk for months at a time. Eventually I realized that my one-dimensional life wasn't getting any more work done.

Your brain needs to recharge, which can mean sleep, daydreaming, paying attention to the drone of exercise, socializing, watching TV, or any number of things.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#124

Post by eru »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #118
lihaciudaniel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For the past 5 years, I hoped I was going to be a philosophy professor Assuming he goes to university or somewhere. Because most people find it boring he should have chosen history, latin, or simply other humanities subjects. How does one even jump from tech to humanities anyways???

> How does one even jump from tech to humanities anyways??? when you're the type of person who likes to question everything and who wants to build things to make the world a "better place", then switching to humanities with a tech foundation is a good option. It can be very dangerous though. One is at risk of undoing all the previous conditioning (which costed a lot of time and money) and bring oneself to realize tha…

Making lots of money is how society tells you what contributions it realy values.

A big part of the rest is empty talk. It's easy to say that we value eg teachers or nurses or janitors. Doesn't make us pay them more.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#125

Post by badpun »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #41
aswanson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter. Build up cash and invest in a career path that values experience.

Depends. In Europe, dev salaries and taxes don't allow you to build enough cash for an exit path unless you plan on staying childless.

It's doable in Switzerland and in London, at least until the tax laws around contracting change.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#126

Post by northern-lights »

georgeburdell wrote: post #29

I look at that resume and I wonder if it didn't hurt more than it helped; it's form over function, and a bit corny. The fact that he got multiple offers in two months shows how strong the software job market is. I'm several years younger, but a staff-level hardware engineer at a second tier company (top tier being FAANG). I've had an incredibly difficult time jumping companies --- 2 years and counting. Despite being…

When I was looking for opportunities in Europe (specifically tech hubs - Berlin, Munich, Dublin, Amsterdam but not London) few months back, I had cold-applied on the respective Company portals to about 100-120 different Software Dev roles.

My resume was definitely good enough to be pass the HR screening at Google/Amazon/Microsoft (as they did get selected locally), and yet the ones that I heard back from and agreed to give me a phone screen numbered in single digits (about 8 - Uber, Stripe and a few more). I was also in the high-skilled category and wouldn't have a problem getting the respective visas. And I did not clear for even 1 onsite. It's just that the competition is just greater these days.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#127

Post by durnygbur »

wolco wrote: post #79
bitL wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some time ago a senior recruiter at Google suggested to me that they would have waived some interviews if I had a famous open-source project on my resume.

Famous open source project > 10000+ likes.

GitHub likes seem like such a volatile currency for competency entities.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#128

Post by smt88 »

renewiltord wrote: post #106
smt88 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That team lead (and companies with similar thinking) need to learn that obsessive/workaholic devs are not more productive. If coding consumes your paid and free time, you're generally not cranking out new CRUD features requested by the marketing team. You're doing pet projects, learning new languages, or getting lost in bikeshedding, like writing a new JS framework because you think the current list sucks. That means…

I'm somewhat amused at this rejuvenation of the age-old belief that folks who have this as a hobby are somehow maladjusted and burning out. Fascinating. I think it was this early belief in the 90s and then the dotcom boom had the superstars and then the next wave had the next superstars and it shifted. Now it's shifted back. Wonder what shifted it. Well, to my people out there, do not fret: there are still places to…

You've missed my point entirely, which is perhaps a communication failure on my part.

I believe there are obsessive coders who will have lots of money/fun. Some will be valuable to their employers. No company should only look for these coders, which is the policy I was originally trying to refute.

It's much, much easier to find productive 40 hr coders than productive 80 hr coders. The ones coding for 80 hrs are often perfectionists, or they believe they're immune to burnout.

You yourself seem to believe that loving something enough means you can avoid burnout. You can't.

Burnout is part of our physiology. If you lose even small amounts of sleep for long periods of time, your performance falls off a cliff. What's worse is that you don't know you're not at your best.

Look at pro gamers. They love games enough to play them all day, every day, but they still suffer at the end of a long session.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#129

Post by oblio »

badpun wrote: post #125
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. In Europe, dev salaries and taxes don't allow you to build enough cash for an exit path unless you plan on staying childless.

It's doable in Switzerland and in London, at least until the tax laws around contracting change.

And that's probably 10% of developers in Europe, at best. More likely 1-5%.

Re: My Mid-Career Job-Hunt: A Data Point for Job-Seeking Devs

#130

Post by oblio »

qchris wrote: post #77
troughway wrote: post #20

Should "mid-career" software developers still be focused on low-balling themselves with having to do "career growth" things like this fellow, or should they plan their exit strategy to get out of that career trajectory entirely? Assuming mid-career is actually mid-career and not the ageist SV type of mid-career.

Just to be clear, there's not a subtext to this question (and I'm less that two years out of school so I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply to me anyway), but would you mind laying out your approximate ranges for mid-career in both of those categories? Are you assuming a retirement age of mid-60s? Mid-70s? Between 5-10 years in a field? 10-20? Does it correlate with a particular approach or competence in their field? How…

The retirement age in many countries is 65 and increasing.

So mid career would be something like 40-50 in my eyes: about 15 years from finishing school and 15 years from retiring.

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