Second-Guessing the Modern Web • Hacker News Board

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#121

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

caribousoup wrote: post #34

userbinator wrote: post #8

Either you omit some interactive elements on load, or you try really hard to make sure that the JavaScript loads faster than users will click, or you make some elements not require JavaScript to work - like making them normal links or forms. Or some combination of those. I realise I'm in the minority, but I use JS whitelisting, which means that any SPAs I come across in my web searches (a disturbingly large number, a…

I think modern web misery all stems from an industry problem. Everywhere I've worked, I have insisted on building things with basic semantic HTML, hand coded CSS, and vanilla JS where precisely needed. Nobody listens. You can make something that loads 50x-100x faster, works responsively on every device, has energy efficient rendering, and the UI/UX is dead simple to use and familiar to all people. And yet... at least…

> loads 50x-100x faster

And takes less time to develop in the first place! These frameworks just seem like pure overhead to me.

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#122

Post by goostavos » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #72

luxphl wrote: post #47

I empathize with the author but client-side technologies like React have a pretty clear advantage that explains why they're popular: for the people that are tasked to make websites (i.e. us, HN readers), they're easier to work with and they save us time. It outweighs all the end-user-facing cons by a lot, because companies need us, and our salaries are expensive. It's true that they are largely more complex than O.G.…

For the most part I think the reason so many web devs put up with the “all-react” (and similar) development experience is basically cargo culting. If you admit you don’t like it, chances are there’s at least one front-end hipster around who will mock you as outdated, and that’s enough to silence most. For the hipsters, the problems of SPAs are hard, and engineers like hacking on hard problems. Also the fact that the…

>If you admit you don’t like it, chances are there’s at least one front-end hipster around who will mock you as outdated, and that’s enough to silence most

I see this everywhere in programming, not just frontend. I think this silent peer pressure influences us all to some degree. Whether through not wanting to look outdated or foolish, to just being tired of the uphill battle involved constantly fighting against the unstoppable momentum of the cargo cult.

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#123

Post by commandlinefan » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #54

caribousoup wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think modern web misery all stems from an industry problem. Everywhere I've worked, I have insisted on building things with basic semantic HTML, hand coded CSS, and vanilla JS where precisely needed. Nobody listens. You can make something that loads 50x-100x faster, works responsively on every device, has energy efficient rendering, and the UI/UX is dead simple to use and familiar to all people. And yet... at least…

Please write more about this because I feel the exact same. Use built in HTML forms. Let the page refresh, what's wrong with going to `/orders/{order_id}` page to get information about the order? It is REST-ful and static. Why do you want things moving around and reacting? People of the internet - imagine if the internet protocols were given to us, but no browser existed. Would we develop this non-sense we have today…

How is it that there are so many of us, but I never seem to work with any of you?

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#124

Post by waheoo » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

luxphl wrote: post #47

I empathize with the author but client-side technologies like React have a pretty clear advantage that explains why they're popular: for the people that are tasked to make websites (i.e. us, HN readers), they're easier to work with and they save us time. It outweighs all the end-user-facing cons by a lot, because companies need us, and our salaries are expensive. It's true that they are largely more complex than O.G.…

Your argument, ignoring every point they make, is that theyre contrarian and have never had to make a real website before.

And..

And youre afraid of a gatekeeping effect?

Did you even read the article or are you just here to make sure the gate's locked?

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#125

Post by austincheney » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

luxphl wrote: post #115

austincheney wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're easier to work with and they save us time. I have never seen evidence of this. Its a lie developers frequently mention because it sounds so thrilling to say. Approximately how much time does it save you in estimated hours? Its like asking for a helicopter to take me to work, because supposedly its faster. I'm simply assuming its faster without looking at any numbers or finances.

I truly do not think it's a lie. Not sure why you think it's a thrill. It's saved me hundreds of hours, if not more. It's certainly faster to use jQuery to change a CSS attribute than it is to setup a React project but what's not considered in that calculation is maintaining the state of that attribute or making changes to the logic in the future. Especially on code you didn't write originally. If all you have to do…

> I truly do not think it's a lie. Not sure why you think it's a thrill. It's saved me hundreds of hours, if not more.

Its a lie so long as the number sounds completely invented. I suspect the number comes from somewhere, maybe a vague memory, or a grossly unqualified estimation, but it isn't based on anything. It is something superficial that primarily serves as self reassurance.

When you have never had to bill people for your time, or you have never been to a board meeting, or never briefed senior executives this kind of fantasy is perfectly fine. The moment there is money on the table you are expected to do more than invent fictional numbers, or you will be replaced by somebody who can.

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#126

Post by scottharveyco » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:18 AM UTC

theonething wrote: post #42

correlator wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rails turbolinks is magic!

Curious if you (or anyone else) have used the ios and/or Android adapter for mobile? Seems like the repos are getting stale. Getting SPAness on web and mobile apps for free would be the holy grail. Basecamp claims it works great for their mobile app.

The Android turbolinks version 1 adapter is now deprecated but a version 2 is meant to be coming soon. I believe it's going to come out after Basecamp's new product named Hey is released shortly.

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#127

Post by burlesona » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:19 AM UTC

luxphl wrote: post #104

burlesona wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part I think the reason so many web devs put up with the “all-react” (and similar) development experience is basically cargo culting. If you admit you don’t like it, chances are there’s at least one front-end hipster around who will mock you as outdated, and that’s enough to silence most. For the hipsters, the problems of SPAs are hard, and engineers like hacking on hard problems. Also the fact that the…

This is what I meant by gatekeeping; there is common misconception that you have to go looking for a library to solve a problem. And it makes it seem like there's a higher barrier to entry than there is. But the reality is that React is plain HTML and Javascript, in a less error-prone and maintainable package. Everything you can do with vanilla JS you can do in React, but with React you benefit from being forced to s…

As a sibling comment notes, and as I noted in a reply to the OP, I agree with you that working with components is a nice approach and very useful. Using React as you describe is perfectly fine. The SPA craze where everything has to be done via React components is where we've jumped the shark IMO.

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#128

Post by mgummelt » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #72

luxphl wrote: post #47

I empathize with the author but client-side technologies like React have a pretty clear advantage that explains why they're popular: for the people that are tasked to make websites (i.e. us, HN readers), they're easier to work with and they save us time. It outweighs all the end-user-facing cons by a lot, because companies need us, and our salaries are expensive. It's true that they are largely more complex than O.G.…

For the most part I think the reason so many web devs put up with the “all-react” (and similar) development experience is basically cargo culting. If you admit you don’t like it, chances are there’s at least one front-end hipster around who will mock you as outdated, and that’s enough to silence most. For the hipsters, the problems of SPAs are hard, and engineers like hacking on hard problems. Also the fact that the…

Can you give an example of a problem that would take significantly longer solving with React than with DOM manipulation?

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#129

Post by austincheney » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:21 AM UTC

amw-zero wrote: post #45

We should create a better division in web standards between the "document web" and the "application web." I think there are valid use cases to both, and we shouldn't rule out either. Wikipedia has to be the greatest realization of the initial spirit of the web: an endless interconnected network of articles of varying topics. That's a real use case, but it's not the use case of _every_ application. Some applications r…

> We should create a better division in web standards between the "document web" and the "application web."

Why are those the only two options? By those terms do mean "document web" as HTML without any JavaScript and "application web" as HTML with any JavaScript, or something else?

Re: Second-Guessing the Modern Web

#130

Post by mgummelt » Mon, May 11, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

simonw wrote: post #78

burlesona wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the most part I think the reason so many web devs put up with the “all-react” (and similar) development experience is basically cargo culting. If you admit you don’t like it, chances are there’s at least one front-end hipster around who will mock you as outdated, and that’s enough to silence most. For the hipsters, the problems of SPAs are hard, and engineers like hacking on hard problems. Also the fact that the…

What a great anecdote. It aligns with my big worry here: we are raising a cohort of front-end developers who don't know how to use plain HTML and forms!

React still requires you to write HTML and forms.