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Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

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Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#371
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It took 20 years for the park board to even listen On that sort of timescale, that's less down to "things move slowly" and more down to "you can't get anything done in the wrong political climate, so you have to wait until appointed officials die and/or an entire generational shift in your municipality produces a sea-change of political views."

Which is almost precisely what happened. Cincinnati is notorious for this sort of thing.

Sure, but my point was that that's not just "moving slowly", it's Brownian motion: there's no guarantee political winds will ever shift favorably in your direction at all. They might drift in the opposite direction for hundreds of years. Community "evaporative cooling" in a city of decreasing population might just see whatever political currents are there get concentrated over time, rather than diminished.

So, basically, any municipal political plan that involves "waiting the problem out" as a strategy, should never actually be chosen/pursued, because if time has any associated overhead costs, then the indefinite amount of time required will cause the overall strategy to have predictably negative ROI.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes your original complaint that they were ruining streets look even sillier. They've agreed to reverse all the damage they've done. I'm not sure how you're angry about this.

That was after getting pressured by the local government.

Was it? It sounds like the franchise agreement that they signed was fairly straight forward and was never really in contention, based on what little I’ve read about this story the last couple of years. Are there any references or news stories that support your claim that google had to be “pressured”?

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to remember that Google is made up of people, as are their sub-companies. I would argue that you get any large group and at some point you get people making stupid, hateful, & hurtful comments. It is equally important to look at whether the organization as a whole is to blame or just pieces of it, and can pieces of it be addressed.

I think it is equally important to remember that those people were hired by other people who ultimately were hired by the people at the very top who set an example for the corporate culture they want to create. Companies being made up of people is no excuse for them doing these incredibly dumb, stupid and toxic things. That's what policies, mission statements and guidelines are for.

> Companies being made up of people is no excuse for them doing these incredibly dumb, stupid and toxic things. I never said it was -- I didn't defend anything about the actions themselves, but a lot of people were blaming "Google" as being awful, which is generalizing a local problem.

> That's what policies, mission statements and guidelines are for. Yes... but these obviously don't apply everywhere. That's like saying "that's what laws are for" then being confused that criminals exist.

> people were hired by other people who ultimately were hired by the people at the very top who set an example for the corporate culture they want to create Yes... and again, Google is rated by most agencies and people as having one of the best cultures out-there. This is not the end-all be-all predictive measure. Taking a hyperbolic example, one could imagine a world where Gandhi ended up recruiting someone who incited violence. You know, the whole Christian-crusades thing might be another example.

While you start off the sentence with an implicit agreement with mine ("I think it's equally important") you then go on to directly oppose it with views. It's not "equally important", you can't hold both side by side (not saying one or the other is more correct).

It's not hard to make an argument that Google has done _the best_ at keeping their "do no evil" culture at scale than any other company of their size (or even half their size). My point is the opposite of yours, which is you cannot control at a certain point, just as cells in your body do not replicate perfectly and produce mutations -- studies have shown that you only get around 13% of an accurate look at someone in the normal interview process, mistakes are bound to happen. People change for other reasons too, their are external pressures. No matter how perfect your values are, you will end up with people doing stupid shit.

* Not condoning any of the actions of Sidewalk Labs.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anathema: "someone or something intensely disliked or loathed", I don't think this word means what you think it means? Perhaps antithesis? Also, I don't know much about the smart-city idea, though I do know that you can design spaces, homes, blocks, etc. in a way that creates natural interaction -- which is something that Google has excelled at (possibly more than any other company). This is also discussed heavily in…

Anathema is Greek for damnation, or accused/accursed from Latin (shortening the etymology I read on it)[1]. Makes more sense as damnation in modern usage, so I think it stands. [1] https://www.etymonline.com/word/anathema

Mmm, you might be able to argue with poetic license that it stands, but I would argue that's not what it means in English, and it's derivation is not its current meaning, and even with "damnation" as a definition it still doesn't read very well.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is equally important to remember that those people were hired by other people who ultimately were hired by the people at the very top who set an example for the corporate culture they want to create. Companies being made up of people is no excuse for them doing these incredibly dumb, stupid and toxic things. That's what policies, mission statements and guidelines are for.

> Companies being made up of people is no excuse for them doing these incredibly dumb, stupid and toxic things. I never said it was -- I didn't defend anything about the actions themselves, but a lot of people were blaming "Google" as being awful, which is generalizing a local problem. > That's what policies, mission statements and guidelines are for. Yes... but these obviously don't apply everywhere. That's like say…

I think the point of the GP, using your metaphor, is that a company's leaders have to identify and excise cancer early and often, lest it metastasize across the organization.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already property tax

That's different from the Empty Home Tax: https://vancouver.ca/your-government/vacancy-tax-bylaw.aspx

Right. The point is that empty homes already pay in to the system. Taxing property owners for how they choose to use or not use their property is silly.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That land was up for grabs since Toronto's bid for 2008 Olympics. The only serious project that materialized was Sidewalks one. Kind of sad.

Sad for who? It’s not as if Toronto needed this development by any stretch of the imagination.

For me. It is sad to ser 12 acres of wasteland siting on top of most premium location for 20 years. It is a sign of deep disfunction

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to say that wasn't a factor in shutting it down. After several missed deadlines, major controversies around trust and privacy, scope creep such as attempts by Sidewalk Labs to alter to the project scope, for example, redevelopment of 350 acres in the Port Lands area which was nearly 30 times the original proposal, withdrawal of key advisors, and proposals that were simply political explosive, etc. It seemed almo…

How can you say it was going to be a shadow of its original goals if was unable to scope creep.

As an observer, Sidewalk initially proposed grand plans which were supposed to cost $ millions, and overtime on one hand, they would get pushback on some parts of the proposal, on the other hand, they would get approval for some part and need to alter the proposal to assuage the opponents. These alterations usually featured some additional proposals ballooning to an estimated cost in the $ billions (scope creep), that seemed even more controversial... The whole process seemed like a tug-of-war, a game of cat and mouse, or whack-a-mole.

They would cede a part of proposal, propose another, only to have some sort of new outcry.

From Ars' article published today https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05/alphabets-sidewalk-l...

> But Sidewalk Labs’ vision was in trouble long before the pandemic. Since its inception, the project had been criticized by progressive activists concerned about how the Alphabet company would collect and protect data, and who would own that data

> The partnership took a bigger hit last summer, when Sidewalk Labs released a splashy and even more ambitious 1,524-page master plan for the lot that went well beyond what the government had anticipated, and for which the company pledged to spend up to $1.3 billion to complete. The redevelopment group wondered whether some of Sidewalk Labs’ proposals related to data collection and governance were even “in compliance with applicable laws.” It balked at a suggestion that the government commit millions to extend public transit into the area, a commitment, the group reminded the company, that it could not make on its own.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire idea of a "smart city" is pure anathema to how vibrant cities function. It's a technocratic wet dream, the digital version of Robert Moses and Corbusier making a comeback. The people preoccupied with this should read some Alain Bertaud and learn how markets work and then go do more productive things with their time than trying to micromanage cities.

I don't see how, I would say most of the decisions that were made in the US are. Cities in the US are not "vibrant" compared to Europe. I think cars are mostly to blame, roads are so large, no pedestrian-only streets, parkings take so much space, etc.

I actually prefer the vastness of space in the US. Just go out in the American country side and there is so much beauty. I would love to see a world where the idea of a city is obsolete, distributed local communities of 2000 people spread across the span of American wilderness. Basic services such as electricity, sewage and internet are all maintained by standards set by the state authorities, but run by locals. It all sounds too hipster, but it is not. This COVID-19 pandemic has taught us a lot about how we can survive as a distributed species as compared to dense city life.

Europe has no such luxury due to the density of people cramped in tight corridors and old (but beautiful) architecture. There it makes sense to have a well organized city life.

IMO city life is overrated but that's just my opinion/perspective of society.

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