James Damore and three others end Google suit • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#801

Post by camelite » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #508

searchableguy wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I only looked at the source - http://valleywag.gawker.com/fuck-bitches-get-leid-the-sleazy... Which is what you should have linked and let people make their mind. I agree it's pretty assy. What are you looking for me to say? You are calling tech community toxic and frat boy asses because some billionaire ceo is a douche bag? I don't know how to reply to that. I already cleared that up. I am not defending him.…

Get over your fragility. I was specifically calling Snapchat and Uber toxic because of their Frat Bro leaders and culture, an undisputed fact which is very widely known and reported on. There is absolutely zero credible evidence that Evan Spiegel didn't write those misogynistic emails, and overwhelming credible evidence that he did, so you should stop believing and intimating that it's a hoax, if you can't prove it.…

> There is absolutely zero credible evidence that Evan Spiegel didn't write those misogynistic emails

It's weird that the dude you're talking to never expressed skepticism as to the provenance of the emails, yet you keep repeating this as if he is.

You seem to have a stock character of your own creation that you're responding to, some sort of cliched misogynist alt right conspiracies troll, instead of simply a skeptic who'd rather trust his own faculties to judge the source material over the opinions of ideological journo-activists.

Seriously, reread the thread.

> intimating that it's a hoax

In no way does he do this. Reread the thread.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#802

Post by camelite » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:29 PM UTC

SamWhited wrote: post #350

pinkfoot wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that our community isn’t very friendly or welcoming to women Be precise, how is your community not friendly to women in ways you cannot fix in five minutes? If its obvious, its trivial to list them, if its subtle then its worth doing the exercise. We have to accept they may just not want the gig. Just like most men don't go into pre-school teaching.

> We have to accept they may just not want the gig. If this is true it's probably because the community isn't very friendly or welcoming to women like the poster said… That being said, I don't think this is true. My only evidence is anecdotal, but at a previous company when we tried to recruit at events that weren't primarily male dominated, we got roughly equal percentages of responses from people who identified as…

> Why don't most women want the software job?

Amusingly, the damore memo was an attempt to address just this very question. Are we not beyond pretending responses outside the proscribed woke ideology will be engaged with in good faith, at this late stage?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#803

Post by Daishiman » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:31 PM UTC

markdog12 wrote: post #766

pgcj_poster wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascists and Anarcho-Capitalists have certain abstract philosophical differences, but in practice, their actual behaviors are almost identical. Most (Fascists|Anarcho-Capitalists) are young, white males who use the internet way too much and either don't vote, or vote Republican. Even among their intellectuals, there's a lot more overlap than you would assume: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe . The lef…

> young, white males who use the internet way too much What does "use the internet way too much" mean?

It means they don't socialize, are not pragmatic, have little understanding of the issues most people actually care about, lack the capacity to empathize with people with radically different life experiences.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#804

Post by ALittleLight » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #790

ALittleLight wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore was explicitly asked for his feedback on a subject. He provided it supported by academic research and was fired for it. If Damore had provided an unconnected list of papers that would have been ignored, yes, because nobody would have known what he meant. Instead, he put together a document that connected different research findings with his own suggestions. A recurring pattern in this debate is that people cri…

> A recurring pattern in this debate is that people criticize Damore for a lack of expertise. Which is odd given that Damore, a Harvard Masters Degree holder in Systems Biology, is clearly conversant with the research and the context he is giving advice in. Oh boy. I've got a PhD in CS from one of the best programs in the world. I'm wildly unqualified to synthesize research in another field and would surely make terr…

Do you genuinely believe that you are unqualified to read research papers and come up with an opinion about them with sufficient rigor to merit responding to a request for a feedback from a training program you attended at work?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#805

Post by cleansingfire » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #184

Damore committed the ultimate sin in the corporate world- he caused a huge PR mess. Let's set aside the content of his memo (I personally don't agree with what he said) and just appreciate that he made a mess. As has been said before, if your CEO learns your name for the same reason he has to end his vacation early, you probably should start polishing up your resume.

I would like to see the breakdown of individual positions on James Damore versus Captain Crozier. I suspect very few people have consistent views (I do not) in spite of exactly the same arguments being made on both sides. Essentially: Should have known it would become public, or too important to keep silent. That tells me the real disagreement isn't in those arguments, but in the values behind them.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#806

Post by naasking » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:43 PM UTC

dralley wrote: post #707

jhhh wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish there was a short way to ask for links without sounding confrontational but maybe this preamble will suffice for this message. Do you have any links about these refutations? Thanks.

This article cites two of them and goes into some of the places where Damore made unjustified leaps in logic. https://www.wired.com/story/the-pernicious-science-of-james-... Here is another that is more detailed but doesn't talk mention individual scientist opinions https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-google-memo-what-does-the-r...

Note that your second link says that Damore's claims were basically correct, modulo a few quibbles. Which is almost beside the point. The whole issue demonstrated a failure at every level of society and corporate leadership.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#807

Post by pas » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

yahyaheee wrote: post #630

leetcrew wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to agree; it's never a good idea to discuss stuff like this on work comms. this leads to a bigger question though. why does google encourage this kind of discussion on an internal mailing list in the first place? seems like it can only lead to embarrassing PR moments.

Yea and he was essentially complaining about google brainwashing

No, he was complaining about how the diversity team wasn't scientific enough, and pointed out that it from a certain viewpoint it doesn't makes sense. But failed to simply account for what Google as an entity (the CEO, the shareholders, the board of directors, the upper management, the vocal minorities, etc) wanted. And that was simply diversity even at the cost of spending a lot of money and making some sub-optimal decisions.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#808

Post by ALittleLight » Sat, May 09, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #769

ALittleLight wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a personal insult to point out a flaw. It is a flaw to assume that talking to people means you are ideologically aligned with them. You claimed this is how "people" work. To the extent that I can assume you consider yourself a member of the group "people" I can logically conclude you are saying that this is how you work too. I don't think you are qualified to speak for all people, but you are certainly qual…

Fine, since you’re going to be persistent about insulting me, I’ll take the bait and explain this carefully. Humans don’t have the time, energy, or interest to evaluate every scrap of information about other people. Instead humans regularly use heuristics when meeting people for the first time, to save time and mental energy. One of these heuristics involves making assumptions about people based on the company they k…

You're conflating going on a talk show to share your story and being friends with people.

I also don't really get your point. It seems like you're saying some people will incorrectly judge him because of the talk shows he went on. Okay, so?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#809

Post by pas » Sat, May 09, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

therealdrag0 wrote: post #774

ekianjo wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to consider the possibility that they were the only people who he could actually talk to. Not that he wanted to be in such channels in the first place.

There was an article about this, that said he went on some alt-right show/podcast and was really uncomfortable/disagreed with what the guy was saying but also isn't the kind of person who can charismatically argue on the spot like that (isn't he "on the spectrum"?). He had no idea what he was getting into.

Well, he should have just stick to writing. Spectrum or not, recognizing that you're not great at talking, and you're not great at handling the fallout doesn't require special skills.

I'm not blaming him for going on those shows, but he should have recognized - after all he tried to argue a complex problem complexly - that supporting very biased simple platforms won't do him and his arguments any good, especially on the long run.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#810

Post by tootie » Sat, May 09, 2020, 11:02 PM UTC

StephenAmar wrote: post #319

pjc50 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. so you'd destroy their life instead?

Always assume that what you say could be on the front page of the New York Times.

Consider the recent kerkuffle with the CEO of Away. She didn't tread on any political or cultural landmines. Just decided to treat her workers like shit and do it on open Slack channels.