James Damore and three others end Google suit • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#771

Post by seemslegit » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:51 PM UTC

jki275 wrote: post #724

mardifoufs wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an opinion article.

It has a timeline. His passport was suspended while he was in Hong Kong. He did not travel to Moscow on his US passport, he travelled to Moscow on some other travel document. He’s a defector. I know this site is full of Snowden apologists, but for goodness sake you don’t have to swallow every easily disprovable lie he tells.

Depending on the mechanics of passport cancellation it could have been both, that is the US could have issued a cancelation order while he was still in HK but HK either did not act on it in time or refused to honor it like it did with Snowden's arrest warrant. The fact that Russia did honor the passport cancellation and did not issue him an alternative travel document is more suggestive but would have been the same if Russia just wanted to hang on to him for the simple reasons of being Russia.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#772

Post by camelite » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:52 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #497

coffeeboy27 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore hasn't said much of his idealogical beliefs publicly and I think it's unfair to criticize him on his choice of legal counsel because he just wants to be well represented which is his right. Regardless of your political beliefs Dhillon is an accomplished attorney. Other attorneys on the left in California don't want to touch the case because of the pearl-clutchers and public political implications so the enemy…

> Damore hasn't said much of his idealogical beliefs publicly That’s all he needs to say to make his beliefs clear. If the whole country (minus some “open-minded” tech bros) thinks you’re a sexist jackass and you do nothing to correct them, I wonder...

It's closer to 50/50 as to who takes your preferred media outlet's word for it that any given individual is a sexist jackass.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Post by catalogia » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #658

catalogia wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: What actually is neuroticism? I'm broadly familiar with the term in a colloquial sense, but not a scientific sense. Wikipedia says: > Neuroticism is one of the Big Five higher-order personality traits in the study of psychology. Individuals who score high on neuroticism are more likely than average to be moody and to experience such feelings as anxiety, worry, fear, anger, frustration, envy, jealous…

> Is there truly a common thread between these various emotions that ties them all together as neuroticism, or is neuroticism an arbitrarily chosen set of emotions? Yes. It's something that shows up in one specific factor analysis as one of five dimensions (i.e. parameters) that effectively summarize your answers to a bunch of questions about personality. Different analyses/models come up with different parameterizat…

Am I correct in thinking that the rationality or lack-thereof of the emotions is considered a factor? And if so, how can that be evaluated through questionnaires asking people about themselves?

Suppose for example a woman lives in an environment that's dangerous for her but not so for men. On the questionnaire, she reports that she often feels afraid. Is that answer considered evidence of neuroticism? It seems to me that it shouldn't be, but you'd need to examine the individual circumstances on a case-by-case basis to tease out the difference between rational fear and neurotic fear. From a logistics standpoint I don't see how that analysis could be done at scale, hence my skepticism that any of this is actually scientific.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Post by therealdrag0 » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #219

azinman2 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he did become an alt-right / Fox News / conservative machine darling.

You have to consider the possibility that they were the only people who he could actually talk to. Not that he wanted to be in such channels in the first place.

There was an article about this, that said he went on some alt-right show/podcast and was really uncomfortable/disagreed with what the guy was saying but also isn't the kind of person who can charismatically argue on the spot like that (isn't he "on the spectrum"?). He had no idea what he was getting into.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#775

Post by quickthrowman » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:57 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #261

somewhereoutth wrote: post #226

I am shocked that there is even a discussion to be had on this. In architecture (a somewhat older profession, but also concerning things constructed by people), women previously did have a hard time, and often had to practice under their husbands/partners name. Mercifully this ended some while ago, and now architecture schools and onwards are more evenly gender balanced. Nobody suggests that women are somehow natural…

> Nobody suggests that women are somehow naturally 'less inclined', and the profession is richer for it. It was not about "inclination", but rather that the current engineering culture tended to be lean a certain way when it comes to focus: > Damore said that those differences include women generally having a stronger interest in people rather than things, and tending to be more social, artistic, and prone to neuroti…

> As to gender balance in professions: are there initiatives to get more ... women into plumbing or carpentry?

Yes, there are. A lot of public construction projects have goals for minorities and women as a percentage of the labor on the job site. Firms owned by women, minorities, and service-disabled veterans are given priority in the bidding process through different mechanisms. Most of the trade unions have programs to recruit women into the trades.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#776

Post by AzzieElbab » Sat, May 09, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #359

AzzieElbab wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would a geek with 0 real life experience outside Google know that? It is not what they told him about "internal discussions".

The people that want everything made explicit and all lies banished from human relations lost, have always lost, and will always lose. I recognize that for some this imposes significant hardship but changing everyone else’s human nature is not a reasonable accommodation. The kindest thing those of us that know young people of this type can do is pull them aside and explain how the world works. It is unkind to feed th…

What happens if he wins the case? We do a 180? What happens when people with Asperger's start suing? They really need to learn how to keep things simple in modern hr. Here are the rules and that's it.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#777

Post by seemslegit » Sat, May 09, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #301

seemslegit wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden did not "defect to Russia", he got stuck in Russia while in transit after the US cancelled his passport.

And crucially, Snowden is as critical of Russia as possible, though not to the point of endangering himself. He doesn't want to be there. It's not where his allegiance ultimately lies.

That's not crucial at all, if he was a Russian asset he would have been behaving the same way - criticising Russia in ways that resonate with his audience to establish credibility but not in ways that actually pose any threat or embarrassment to Russia. But on the balance of publicly available evidence it seems far more likely he is stuck there due to lack of choice.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#778

Post by DonHopkins » Sat, May 09, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #764

DonHopkins wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Journalist using the words "frat" [...] No actually: widely respected Pulitzer Prize and other award winning New York Times journalists quoting senior government official using the word "frat": “The culture clash between public and private sectors has been jarring,” The Times reports. “The senior official described the Kushner team as a ‘frat party’ that descended from a U.F.O. and invaded the federal government.” >…

The media is not "everywhere", it's the media, which currently has a massive problem with subjective narratives rather than facts.

Are you actually suggesting that it follows from the media being not being "everywhere" that Frat Bros culture is a myth?

Exactly what about the Snapchat or Jared Kushner stories I cited do you believe is a hoax?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Post by magic5227 » Sat, May 09, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

bobmcbobface wrote: post #158

magic5227 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a society tells a woman she's not likely as interested in something, guess what profession she is more likely to choose? Not the one she's being told she won't be happy with.

Seriously, who in society is doing this? 20 years ago there was a lot less of a push for women in tech and you actually did hear lots of people espouse this view, now the programmes and encouragement is everywhere and the social cost of a different view is your job. What is being argued and and what is happening don't seem to correlate.

I don't think having a few programs or pr campaigns solves systemic bias. I guess to answer your question, ask women who are in tech or considered it if they experience bias.

I have, and I regularly hear depressing and disturbing examples.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#780

Post by magic5227 » Sat, May 09, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

alexpetralia wrote: post #142

magic5227 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a society tells a woman she's not likely as interested in something, guess what profession she is more likely to choose? Not the one she's being told she won't be happy with.

Is there any evidence that would convince you that interests can diverge, independent of society (nurture)? Your argument relies on the assumption (yes, an assumption, not evidence) that society exclusively determines our interests. You do not admit a role for biology. There is little scientific evidence that supports this view.

I didn't say "society exclusively determines our interests"

my point was pretty simple. If society at large, in ways small and big, encourage women from joining a field, I think it's likely fewer will participate.

This is the argument behind Sheryl Sandberg creating stock photos that demonstrate more inclusion. If all I see are white men with grey hair in photos as doctors, don't you think that might bias women to think that's who doctors are? That's not 100% of what influences an interest, but it's an important one.

https://www.gettyimages.com/collections/leanin