Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for the links, however I think the misrepresentation of information here is women have higher rates of neuroticism, but is that true within sample present at Google? Not every possible women is more neurotic than every possible man. Additionally, dealing with discrimination can lead to self-esteem issues, which are tied to neuroticism.
Women on average are more socially aware and exhibit higher emotional intelligence than women. There is scientific research to suggest this, and for me anecdotally it also rings true (as a man, but again key word = on average). Do you find this statement offensive? Should I not say this because it might hurt men's feelings? Or is it only wrong to say something negative about a race/gender if it implies something nega…
James Damore and three others end Google suit
711–720 of 1001 posts
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#712Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry, but if you're talking about Googlers, that's bullshit, they're fine. 200k/yr, 300k/yr+ worth of fine. It's great to have empathy for people in a less fortunate position, and yes we have a lot of problems in our society, but FAANG software engineers are arguably the least oppressed people on the planet.
> FAANG software engineers are arguably the least oppressed people on the planet. Heterosexual cisgender white christian male FAANG software engineers may be. Racism and other bigotry doesn't stop affecting you because of economic class or other social position of advantage orthogonal to the basis of the bigotry. Similarly, police officers are also a relatively privileged group of people, but 90% of mistaken identity…
That's an interesting statistic. Can I have the source? (This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to cast doubt on what you said.)
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#713Earlier quoted context omitted.
Literally his whole memo was posted online, in full. I struggle to understand the context that was missing.
What percentage of people publicly criticizing the memo and attacking Damore do you think actually read it in full? Worth noting the first couple outlets (Vice, Gizmodo) did not post the full memo when they dropped the story.
1. https://medium.com/@tweetingmouse/the-truth-has-got-its-boot...
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#714Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please note the shifting goal posts. At the start of this comment thread you were saying that Damore's memo was certainly unscientific, and now you are arguing that there needs to be a higher bar for action than the fair assumptions that Damore made. Keep in mind that Damore is a single person giving feedback to a diversity course. He doesn't have the resources, time, or mandate to survey Google's employees to test w…
It seems like he was cherry-picking studies that fit a personal theory he held before the feedback was ever requested. I would consider that to be unscientific.
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#715Earlier quoted context omitted.
He also tweeted during the middle of this, "The KKK is horrible and I don't support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. 'Grand Wizard'?" So... shrugs
He sounds like he may be on the autistic spectrum, which if treated as a form of social disability would (or should, IMO) grant him some leeway. If his intent wasn’t sexist then his failure to perfectly negotiate the complex social way those points have to be expressed isn’t a moral failing on his part. Edit: I’d rather posters took the time to argue against rather than downvote. My point is just that ‘socially colou…
That's because he is: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/16/james-dam...
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#716Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am going to be honest, I consider myself on the left side of the spectrum, but I am disgusted by the outrage culture on Twitter etc. Besides censorship, I believe it's a tactic by neoliberal types to pretend to be on the left by virtue signaling, but not actually addressing any of the economics I care about, (medicare for all, free college etc.), so I actually agree with you there. That being said, what I also disl…
Your last line invalidates everything you just said. The point is not whether he is deemed unpopular or takes a risk....the idea is that the ability to have that conversation should be honored. It is a debate and if there is an argument to be made, let it be made. If the majority disagree that is their right but respecting the fact someone has a differing opinion is the point. "Great minds think alike....lesser minds…
I agree that the ability to have a conversation should be honored by the broader society, hence why I dislike Twitter outrage culture.
This is separate from whether there would be consequences for your employment at a company wishing to minimize negative PR around itself.
So to reiterate, his ability to have the conversation outside of work should absolutely be tolerated and protected. Within a work environment however, it is currently unreasonable to expect the same free speech rights as one is guaranteed from the state, regardless of my opinion that this should not be the case.
Therefore getting dismissed should not be a surprising outcome.
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#717Earlier quoted context omitted.
That has everything to do with politics. Go take a look at the various declarations of secession when the slaveholding US states tried to quit and form the Confederacy. A number of them explicitly mention that a system of racial slavery is fine because black people were naturally inferior, which is how in the 1850s one would have said "biological differences". That was very obviously politics. Further, there's an eno…
So what are you trying to say, we shouldn't be allowed to talk about gender differences? There's an enormous difference between the references you made because they are all trying to rationalize treating a race/gender as inferior. On top of that, there is no real scientific evidence backing anything up and it all basically amounts to inferring causation from correlation (ie. they are inferior because they are poor).…
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#718Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm sorry, but I don't want to live in societies where people are made pariahs if they make such mistakes. I agree with this statement, but I think it's a sentiment that is in tension with everything else you've said so far. I don't believe Damore has said that he thought his memo or its contents were a "mistake." He has totally failed to engage with the critiques of his position and has instead focused on critiqui…
Hey, I really appreciate replies like yours. Damore definitely hasn't backstepped on his memo in any way, although that doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't have been given the option to begrudgingly disavow his position in order to remain at Google. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think that was possible for him. I guess that's the point I was trying to make. Whether he failed to engage with critiques of his posit…
Looking at the very basic timeline of events, I'm really unsure this is true. Wikipedia says there was about a month between the initial memo and his removal and that Damore did add an addendum to the memo generally denouncing sexism (though, I think, not engaging with the critiques of his writings as "sexist")[1]. I suspect that if he had, in that addendum, retracted some or all of what he had said, he had a real opportunity to keep his job.
That said, I also want to question the idea that a just and fair resolution of a mis-step should necessarily include an opportunity to be perfectly restored to your previous situation. It's common, for instance, for a project to go in what turns out, in hindsight, to be the wrong direction. The people in charge of that project might be removed to let someone with fresh eyes come in - not because they're being punished, but because that's how humans work. People removed in that way are seen to have...performed suboptimally, but not failed exactly. I think it's totally possible that Damore writes a memo that is filled with sexist tropes and ignorant reifications of sexist hierarchies and is removed from his current position, but it's understood that his response enables him to go on to new positions. An older example of this is the standard of conduct for US judges, which says that even the appearance of impropriety is banned. I think Google is well within its rights to remove people for the appearance of sexism and those people who appeared sexist have the opportunity to demonstrate that they're not, in fact, sexist and go on to further positions.
Again, I don't believe Damore has tried very hard to prove that he doesn't actually hold sexist views.
>I don't think the analogy of Dan Harmon completely holds up.
I think you're quite right about the difference between their contexts. I thought Harmon's apology was just a great example of addressing serious misdeeds after the fact. Harmon's apology was positively received by his victim and, as far as I know, he's gone on to success in new ventures[3].
> I don't think someone can credibly call Damore a predator or dangerous.
I think I generally agree with what you're saying here but I think the word "dangerous" deserves more examination. One of the core tenants of the critique of Damore's work is that it supports a generally misogynistic world view. He's highlighting that women perform differently than men on certain measurements and that those measurements are also associated with being an effective engineer. This ignores the problem of how these terms come to be defined - if nearly all engineers are men, any measurement of the 'good' engineers will find they almost all test 'like men.' So saying that the weakness of female engineers is revealed by their failure to test 'like men' is ignoring the historical slant to the data. To me, that is dangerous. You can see this same problem in the Amazon AI that scored resumes from women more poorly because Amazon had previously hired few female engineers[4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Ch...
[2] https://www.uscourts.gov/judges-judgeships/code-conduct-unit...
[3] It's worth saying that lots of people who have credibly been accused of sexual assault also go on to great success. The idea that accusations destroy someones career are overblown.
[4] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-jobs-automatio...
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#719That's my observation of these threads - it's a curious game - the only winning move, Professor Falcon, is not to play. How about a nice game of Chess?
Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit
#720Earlier quoted context omitted.
They solicited feedback. He gave them feedback that was well reasoned and well supported with citations, regardless of whether it was true or not. They didn't warn him, they fired him and the outrage mob wanted to ensure he never worked again. If you're going to solicit feedback and then fire someone because you don't like it - at least specify that it must be non-dissenting feedback. Be honest here about the dishone…
That not even vaguely what that memo was. It was a blatantly political argument. Its go link was "pc-considered-harmful". Its central thesis was that Google leans too far to the left.
If a company can't handle honest, carefully researched and presented feedback - they shouldn't ask for it.