James Damore and three others end Google suit • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#411

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

free_rms wrote: post #288

jpdb wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's still a great workplace as long as you can discard politics. There are large swathes of people who can't just "discard politics" because they are directly affected by the current political status quo.

Sorry, but if you're talking about Googlers, that's bullshit, they're fine. 200k/yr, 300k/yr+ worth of fine. It's great to have empathy for people in a less fortunate position, and yes we have a lot of problems in our society, but FAANG software engineers are arguably the least oppressed people on the planet.

> FAANG software engineers are arguably the least oppressed people on the planet.

Heterosexual cisgender white christian male FAANG software engineers may be. Racism and other bigotry doesn't stop affecting you because of economic class or other social position of advantage orthogonal to the basis of the bigotry.

Similarly, police officers are also a relatively privileged group of people, but 90% of mistaken identity shootings of off-duty police by police between 1982 and 2010 were shootings of black or hispanic officers.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#412

Post by teataster » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #324

threatofrain wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s like suing people for telling others that you’re gay. That’s a standard of liability people would never rally behind, one which prevents you from speaking truthfully at the cost of another person.

Not quite. He didn't write the memo to say he's a misogynist or a political conservative. He wrote a memo implying the women who worked with him may not be as competent as the men. Now replace "women" with any other group, such as people of color, Jews, armed forces veterans or Republicans, and see how it goes.

I am afraid what he was saying was that the current policy for attracting women to tech might be inefficient. He also proposed a bunch of policies that might make tech more attractive to women.

It's fine to disagree with him, it's not to missrepresent what he said.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#413

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

sacks2k wrote: post #292

mabbo wrote: post #184

Damore committed the ultimate sin in the corporate world- he caused a huge PR mess. Let's set aside the content of his memo (I personally don't agree with what he said) and just appreciate that he made a mess. As has been said before, if your CEO learns your name for the same reason he has to end his vacation early, you probably should start polishing up your resume.

He never released anything to the public. Someone who didn't like his political views leaked it to Twitter and the press. If I were him, I would have personally sued the person that leaked the content and continued the fight until they had no money left. They really need to be taught a lesson that it's not okay to do something like this with the intention of destroying a person's life.

Publishing to that many people and expecting it to remain private is folly of such a high kind that it borders on stupidity.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#414

Post by hpliferaft » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

bobmcbobface wrote: post #373

THERE'S A HUGE SHORTAGE OF MEN IN NURSING! THIS IS OBVIOUSLY DUE TO INHERENT SEXISM AND FEMALE TOXICITY! HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS ISSUE?

If you take 30 seconds to Google you'll find a bunch of sources that indicate the low percentage of men in nursing is nuanced. It's not just toxicity or gatekeeping.

Examples:

"Research indicates that ideas of masculinity prevent men from pursuing a career in nursing." - https://www.npr.org/2018/10/02/653570048/why-more-men-dont-g...

"The problem is that notions of masculinity die hard, in women as well as men." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/men-dont-w...

"Some tasks require getting in a patient’s personal space and some patients may prefer to request a female nurse." https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/nursing/blog/men-in-nursin...

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#415

Post by Infinitesimus » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #407

sacks2k wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He never released anything to the public. Someone who didn't like his political views leaked it to Twitter and the press. If I were him, I would have personally sued the person that leaked the content and continued the fight until they had no money left. They really need to be taught a lesson that it's not okay to do something like this with the intention of destroying a person's life.

Sued them for what, exactly? Quoting a document Damore circulated to thousands of people? Being honest isn't generally a crime. I'll note that you've just imagined the "intention of destroying a person's life" bit. There were plenty of reasons for releasing that that have nothing to do with Damore. Indeed, why would they have anticipated that it would lead to Damore's firing? If that was obvious, then that would have…

> Indeed, why would they have anticipated that it would lead to Damore's firing? If that was obvious, then that would have been obvious to Damore when he wrote it.

Not sure I agree. There is no big tech corporation in current America where having your name tied to a memo like that won't destroy your career within the company l.

Damore certainly should have expected that if leadership disagreed with him, he was in for a bad time. However, he still is within reasonable bounds to go after whoever leaked the internal memo externally regardless of whether or not you agree with the content.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#416

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #371

mabbo wrote: post #184

Damore committed the ultimate sin in the corporate world- he caused a huge PR mess. Let's set aside the content of his memo (I personally don't agree with what he said) and just appreciate that he made a mess. As has been said before, if your CEO learns your name for the same reason he has to end his vacation early, you probably should start polishing up your resume.

I'm inclined to agree; it's never a good idea to discuss stuff like this on work comms. this leads to a bigger question though. why does google encourage this kind of discussion on an internal mailing list in the first place? seems like it can only lead to embarrassing PR moments.

It was going to end in tears one way or another.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#417

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 » Sat, May 09, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #333

StephenAmar wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always assume that what you say could be on the front page of the New York Times.

This is literally part of Noogler orientation at Google, word for word, and I'm sure at many other companies too. I sure as hell don't write screeds at work, only design docs that would be completely uninteresting to national media.

Hopefully every other part of your online life is under a difficult to guess pseudonym if you write anything even remotely controversial, because the social justice mob is only looking for scalps, not justice.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#418

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 09, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #370

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If true, this is extraordinarily significant. It could mean that woman who are driven away from software engineering by discriminatory and derogatory behaviour are somehow exhibiting differences to their law / medicine counterparts. Is there any research in to this question?

I don't know about any comparative studies, but sexism in medicine (even patients are calling female doctors honey or sweetie) is an ancient problem. https://www.girlsglobe.org/2019/03/12/time-confront-sexism-m... I can't imagine sexism or work environment (looong hours and exhausting shifts) are substantially worse in engineering. What is different is, in my opinion, that medicine/law is perceived as higher status t…

I'm not sure shopping exclusively at Hot Topic in your forties is idolizing tech in any way. If they wanted the character to be cool and edgy, they should have updated her look at least occasionally.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#419

Post by ashtonkem » Sat, May 09, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #174

Google has fired a few people, liberal and conservative, for being politically insufferable. Multiple people in the news about this on various places in political spectrum. It doesn’t mean they were wrong.

Sometimes the tallest blade of grass gets cut.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#420

Post by glenda » Sat, May 09, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

JSavageOne wrote: post #408

It's annoying that Bloomberg refers to the memo as being "political" and expressing "political conservatism". The memo was attempting to explain the underrepresentation of women in tech via biological differences. That has literally nothing to do with politics, and framing it as such misrepresents and discredits the contents of the memo.

I don’t see what’s wrong with calling it political... it surely isn’t scientific. The opinions he expressed seem like naive political theories based on his understanding of gender and society, which is an extremely nuanced topic.