James Damore and three others end Google suit • Hacker News Board

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#381

Post by foldr » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

spangry wrote: post #375

foldr wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrary to a popular straw man, few people deny that men and women are different in some respects. The point is that there is no reason to think that these differences should, in a healthy culture, put women off becoming programmers, or make them less capable of doing a good job.

Sure, and that's not an argument I'd make. But, as Damore suggested in his memo, mightn't these innate differences mean that women are less likely, on average, to prefer careers in software engineering? And mightn't these innate differences also explain why women are strongly over-represented in certain other professions like nursing (91%), elementary and middle school teaching (81%) and social work (80%)?

Any difference between two things might turn out to be responsible for some other difference between the two things. Perhaps men are better at software engineering because they're taller. Perhaps women don't enjoy programming because they have breasts. It is pointless -- and in this context, often harmful -- to speculate.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#382

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:38 PM UTC

jacobmoe wrote: post #284

LurkersWillLurk wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're trying to say that a policy from management is beyond all reproach or if "these things just happen in the real world". Either way, the former shouldn't be true and the latter should be wrong. Of course, correctness doesn't stop anyone from being terminated, but that's not the point.

Policy from management is not beyond all reproach, but what venue you have for expressing disagreement varies by company. Do you think the firing of James Damore warranted the attention it got? Edit: removed a too snarky question.

Damore plausibly used those venues to circulate his paper.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#383

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

bobmcbobface wrote: post #348

jacobmoe wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been endless discussion about Damore. In particular podcasts you'd think that the firing of a random engineer at Google ranked alongside 9/11 as a defining event in modern history. If I circulated a memo to my co-workers that not only opposed a new policy from management, but did obvious harm to the expressed intent of that policy, I might be fired. It doesn't matter if the memo I circulated would have gotten…

I think that's because a lot of people think that some corporations now have much greater power than governments, especially when it comes to influencing / controlling social thought.

It's enough to say both can be oppressive without bothering to rank them.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Post by jpxw » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

DonHopkins wrote: post #297

mabbo wrote: post #184

Damore committed the ultimate sin in the corporate world- he caused a huge PR mess. Let's set aside the content of his memo (I personally don't agree with what he said) and just appreciate that he made a mess. As has been said before, if your CEO learns your name for the same reason he has to end his vacation early, you probably should start polishing up your resume.

If your CEO hires women who you think are biologically inferior to you because of their gender, you'd better start polishing up your resume before they learn your name.

That’s not what he said

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#385

Post by ralfd » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

jacobmoe wrote: post #229

gameswithgo wrote: post #174

Google has fired a few people, liberal and conservative, for being politically insufferable. Multiple people in the news about this on various places in political spectrum. It doesn’t mean they were wrong.

There's been endless discussion about Damore. In particular podcasts you'd think that the firing of a random engineer at Google ranked alongside 9/11 as a defining event in modern history. If I circulated a memo to my co-workers that not only opposed a new policy from management, but did obvious harm to the expressed intent of that policy, I might be fired. It doesn't matter if the memo I circulated would have gotten…

My understanding is that it was "normal" for Google to have these kind of discussions on internal boards. A remnant of the libertarian message board and usenet culture of the early silicon valley.

They only fully cracked down on political speech like a big boring company last year:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/08/23/google_politics_cha...

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#386

Post by JoeSmithson » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #354

JoeSmithson wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a lot of female programmers told you about the unfair advantages they feel they have in the field?

Not sure what you mean. All the female programmers I've come across had been hired without receiving any boost from an affirmative action program. Had I worked in a company that gave a score boost to candidates belonging to any group X, I could have the legitimate doubt that without the boost some of the people in the group X wouldn't have been hired. It's simply a necessary consequence of the affirmative action.

Originally you were presenting an opposition which is based on a theoretical objection held _by women themselves_, one which you've now confirmed you've never actually seen. If you're going to advocate on people's behalf, limit it to concerns they've actually expressed themselves.

You've now rephrased your objection that you would have a problem because you would assume female programmers were less qualified, which is not what you said in your original comment.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#387

Post by humanrebar » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

jacobmoe wrote: post #305

martin_bech wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact you wrote this comment, tells me, that you never read his memo.

How so, I didn't say anything about the content of the memo? Or you disagree that it did obvious harm to Google's policy on gender? We know that female employees received the memo and stated that it made them feel excluded, which did harm to the intent of the policy. That's not really debatable is it?

The phrasing implied that Damore willfully created that harm. It's a simpler explanation, at the time of authorship, that he did not expect the reaction it got. It seemed to be an attempt to explain his logic in an inoffensive way, in fact.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#388

Post by JSavageOne » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #184

Damore committed the ultimate sin in the corporate world- he caused a huge PR mess. Let's set aside the content of his memo (I personally don't agree with what he said) and just appreciate that he made a mess. As has been said before, if your CEO learns your name for the same reason he has to end his vacation early, you probably should start polishing up your resume.

It was only a "PR mess" because his co-workers leaked the memo to the eager press and Google fired him over what was basically a paper attempting to explain why women might be underrepresented in engineering. If a famous company fires someone over something so trivial, of course the media will be all over it. Had none of that happened, none of us would be still discussing this because it's not like the paper's particularly groundbreaking or anything.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#389

Post by jpxw » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:43 PM UTC

banads wrote: post #362

pgcj_poster wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fascism, sitting on the right, could also have sat on the mountain of the center” —Benito Mussolini

Can you explain what this means?

Mussolini essentially saw the left-right spectrum as useless. I think he was correct about this. The fact that both fascism and anarcho capitalism are classified as being on the right indicates the spectrum is a gross oversimplification.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#390

Post by ravenstine » Sat, May 09, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

Damore was not offered a chance to receive forgiveness by either the company or the outrage mob, therefore I don't respect what people generally have to say about whether what he did was right or wrong. It's astounding that people are still debating this in this very HN thread. A society of any size that makes virtue claims while simultaneously adding an undue price to being wrong or insensitive deserves to be mocked and ridiculed. You don't have to agree with anything Demore said, but the fact that Google openly encouraged political discussion, yet had an unwritten rule that if you say anything to upset a particular political demographic that you are terminated, is patently absurd. Companies shouldn't be encouraging employees to be political. We would never tolerate companies that encourage religious discussion but fire employees that say things against the Christian faith.

If you're going to come into this thread to refute Damore's memo and downvote people who don't tow your petty little line, your need to reexamine your principles, if you've got one.