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Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

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Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#51

Post by harimau777 »

kiawe_fire wrote: post #31

I can't claim to know how today compares to our past, but what strikes me about today is how close I feel we are in terms of values and ideas, yet how divided we are politically. Without saying my political beliefs, I've had conversations about immigration, taxes, race, and religion with people both on and against my side of the aisle, with people of diverse backgrounds. It's crazy to me how much we agree on and how…

Could some of that be the difference between the principles that people advocate and how they act when the rubber meets the road? That is, it seems to me that most Republicans do not advocate anti-immigrant, racist, etc. opinions. However, when it comes to election day they are willing to vote in people who put those policies in place.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#52

Post by hellofunk »

parsimo2010 wrote: post #37

Think America was divided in the 1970s? Try the 1860s. And if you somehow think that the US Civil War doesn't count because it was soldiers fighting, remember that one of the precursors to the war occurred in Kansas. In the 1850s, civilians from both sides invaded and fought to kick the other side out so they could rig Kansas' vote on slavery. It was violence between civilians and obvious attempts to manipulate a dem…

Exactly. I got downvoted for mentioning this elsewhere, but it has been noted over the last decade that modern political polarization is as bad in the 21st century as it was during the 1860's, which is opposite the thesis of this article.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#53

Post by kube-system »

Animats wrote: post #43
astine wrote: post #3

There may have been more violence among various radical and extremist factions in American politics in the 70s but that doesn't mean that America was more divided politically over all. There wasn't nearly as much partisanship in the upper-echelons of power in 70s and I suspect that there was more consensus among people in more moderate circles. There also wasn't this huge epistemological divide running right through…

Mass shootings in the US - table.[1] Only one in the 1970s, and that was a family affair. Far more since. Terrorism in the United States.[2] Other than 9/11 and Oklahoma City, few non mass shooting incidents have killed many people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_S... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States...

I don't think the comparative death-rate of an attack is necessarily indicative of the magnitude of division that caused it.

I think your data simply illustrates that terrorists mostly changed their methods after Columbine.

Your source illustrates that the total number of incidents was way higher in the 70s.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#54

Post by neonate »

parsimo2010 wrote: post #45
neonate wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article includes most of that.

The article mentions the US Civil War in it's third and second to last sentences in the last paragraph, and that's the only place. I expanded on that by a considerable amount. Right now I feel like the Civil War is an apt comparison since we have state governors making pacts between themselves to act a certain way regardless of what the federal government says to do.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't added anything interesting. I enjoyed those parts of your comment. It just sounded like you hadn't read the article, since you repeated its points as if they were new. I was trying to follow the site rule against saying "did you even read the article" (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#55

Post by forgotmylogin2 »

Animats wrote: post #21
beervirus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now the divide is around the basics of the scientific method. People think that vaccines have killed more people than they help. They think that hydrochloroquine is a wunderdrug and Bill Gates is suppressing its use so he can make more money. I see disagreements that are not arguable on any merit. The number of people who believe stuff like this is vanishingly small. They're just vocal in their ignorance.

The number of people who believe stuff like this is vanishingly small. Unfortunately, it's not.[1] [1] https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-05-0...

24% of people choosing not to get a vaccine that doesn't even exist yet is significantly different from what was alleged in the parent comment, which was:

> People think that vaccines have killed more people than they help

A lot of people would choose not get a vaccine simply because they don't like needles, not because they think the vaccine is likely to kill them.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#56

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

hedora wrote: post #18
tensor wrote: post #4

This article really misses the point. Sure, there may be times in the long past where there was a lot of divide. America once had legal slavery too. But it would still be absolutely appalling if slavery were to come back today. The article almost gives off the impression that "oh it happened before so it's ok and normal". No, it's not ok and normal. It wasn't ok back then and it's not ok now.

Slavery is still legal in the US (it was never completely banned). > The Thirteenth Amendment forbade slavery and involuntary servitude, “except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.“ There are about 2.1 million people in the prison system. They’re forced to work, disproportionately african american, or other minorities. Many were wrongfully convicted. Their work props up a multi-b…

I pointed it out to my wife once, but the general look was that of disbelief. It was clearly internalized that this is how things should be. The prisoners are not slaves. They are prisoners. They have a debt to society and they better work it off. If anything, things are too easy on the prison population. It was an interesting revelation. I doubt this is an uncommon view.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#57

Post by astine »

saas_sam wrote: post #26
astine wrote: post #3

There may have been more violence among various radical and extremist factions in American politics in the 70s but that doesn't mean that America was more divided politically over all. There wasn't nearly as much partisanship in the upper-echelons of power in 70s and I suspect that there was more consensus among people in more moderate circles. There also wasn't this huge epistemological divide running right through…

Bold claims. Do you have any references that support any of them? Inquiring minds want to know.

I don't think they're that bold. The notion that congress is divided more strictly along sectarian lines today than the past is from this paper: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... which measures a decrease in cross-party voting over the last few generations.

The "common truth" is a bit more subjective, but I've definitely noticed people in my extended social groups having fewer and fewer information sources in common, as well as a smaller and smaller set of common beliefs. I'm not the only person I've come across who's had this impression.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#58

Post by mcphage »

parsimo2010 wrote: post #37

Think America was divided in the 1970s? Try the 1860s. And if you somehow think that the US Civil War doesn't count because it was soldiers fighting, remember that one of the precursors to the war occurred in Kansas. In the 1850s, civilians from both sides invaded and fought to kick the other side out so they could rig Kansas' vote on slavery. It was violence between civilians and obvious attempts to manipulate a dem…

> Think America was divided in the 1970s? Try the 1860s.

That was right before that big war that killed over 600,000 people, right?

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#59

Post by jscheel »

The whole article came across as "so what if the right has violent extremists who are ideologically supported by some of the highest levels of Republican leadership today... what about the ultra-left radical terrorists of the 1970s?!" This came as a surprise, until I realized that this article is featured in The Spectator.

Re: Think America’s divided now? Try the 1970s

#60

Post by downerending »

I was young enough in the 70s not to get all of the subtlety, but I think we really are more divided now than back then. Current politics is vicious in a way now that I don't recall back then.

In any case, to get a taste of what things were like then, watch Ken Burns' excellent documentary on the Vietnam War (currently on Netflix?).

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