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We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

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Re: We Chat, They Watch

#171

Post by yumraj »

idrios wrote: post #118
yumraj wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To talk to friends or family that are in China. I'm assuming you mean of not-Chinese origin, basically expats. Yes? Are there no other options? Are no non-Chinese messengers allowed in China?

Yeah WhatsApp, Facebook, Reddit, Google Hangouts all banned in China. Pretty much anything not owned by a Chinese company, or anything that didn't go through all sorts of hoops to meet Chinese censorship criteria (and even then it's not a guarantee), is banned. Even github was banned until Chinese developers complained that it made their jobs impossible

Sounds like a Sophie's choice - WeChat vs the alternate

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#173

Post by MattGaiser »

justusw wrote: post #139
TechBro8615 wrote: post #98

It’s worth noting that Facebook Messenger also intercepts and filters messages. For example, it’s impossible to send a message containing the link “joebiden.info”. On the mobile app, it will simply say “failed to send.” On desktop, it will tell you the link violates its “community standards” and cannot be shared.

I just tried it on Facebook Messenger, and it would only work when switching to a encrypted chat (which kind of makes sense). Kind of outrageous to criticize WeChat and leave out Facebook, when it clearly wants to join the party. I realize Facebook doesn't implement the same degree of censorship as WeChat, but to be fair, I live in Japan, and even for me the joebiden.info is censored.

Facebook at least tells you, but yes, this is concerning.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#174

Post by astatine »

Excellent research! I have a feeling that many governments would be wondering how to get this kind of power on their side. Envy > horror.

Every administration around the world fighting for loosening e2e secured messaging protocols is basically envious of China!

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#175

Post by idra »

philliphaydon wrote: post #153
idra wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

> As does any messenger through a VPN Except VPNs are illegal in china. If a site is banned in china. Using a VPN to circumvent the law is breaking the law. Email is not secure.

There is no such thing as "the law" in China. You may be imprisoned or disappeared if you didn't do anything to circumvent "the law", there are always undisclosed "relevant rules and regulations" ready to be unleashed. You can also carry out brazen illegal activities as long as you are well-connected (until you start stepping on toes of someone more well-connected than you).

So what if email is insecure, neither is Wechat. And encrypted email is still a thing.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#176

Post by lvturner »

philliphaydon wrote: post #153
idra wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

> As does any messenger through a VPN Except VPNs are illegal in china. If a site is banned in china. Using a VPN to circumvent the law is breaking the law. Email is not secure.

This isn't strictly true - https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3023081/c...

It's also worth noting that a cellular connection that is roaming is not generally subject to the restrictions the firewall imposes.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#177

Post by JSavageOne »

kccqzy wrote: post #141
TechBro8615 wrote: post #98

It’s worth noting that Facebook Messenger also intercepts and filters messages. For example, it’s impossible to send a message containing the link “joebiden.info”. On the mobile app, it will simply say “failed to send.” On desktop, it will tell you the link violates its “community standards” and cannot be shared.

The differences are: (1) with Facebook it's a private company doing the censoring and there's no issue with that, no First Amendment issues at all, unlike WeChat where the censoring is heavily linked to the government; (2) Facebook at least tells you when a message can't be sent but WeChat fails silently.

> it's a private company doing the censoring and there's no issue with that

That's certainly not a universally agreed upon perspective. Just because you're a private company doesn't mean you can do anything you want (eg. discrimination), hence the existence of regulations.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#178

Post by zxcmx »

sandworm101 wrote: post #92
zxcmx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still not a full answer, of course, your proprietary operating system or closed chipsets can spy on you. Absolutism isn't helpful IMHO, there is no true security in this world only degrees of trust and risk. You can always go one step further in securing a product but the first step still matters. I think there's real value in companies implementing e2e (and it's hard! it's super hard politically to get this d…

Verifying the software one is running is not absolutism. Just because one cannot provide 'perfect' security isn't a reason to give up trying to provide some security by elevating the effort requires to conduct an attack. That locks can be picked isn't an excuse to not bother locking the door.

You'll note that logically a company cannot actually solve this problem themselves in a satisfactory way, since you would have the same problem trusting the verification mechanism as you did trusting their app in the first place.

What you want belongs as an operating system or app distribution mechanism concern. A third party OS extension might make sense. Even that's a bit fraught if there is any kind of dynamic code execution (aka code that appears at runtime, say, a web view).

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#179

Post by [deleted] »

fiblye wrote: post #121
yingliu4203 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Chinese-Americans have no choice when they need to communicate with family and friend living in China. No outside communication tools allowed in China.

Outside of China, we're pretty lucky that we can just register for random sites like HN with nothing more than a username and password and start talking. Every Chinese site I've ever used requires phone number or ID verification. Most of them only allow Chinese-registered phones, meaning it's absolutely impossible to communicate with Chinese people from the outside world, aside from a very small number of carefully v…

[deleted]

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#180

Post by idra »

fiblye wrote: post #150
idra wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Have no choice" is false. Fortunately, email still works. As does any messenger through a VPN. Using Wechat is simply being complicit with censorship out of laziness.

Keep in mind that most major domains outside of China are blocked. Chinese services aren't going to be any more lax with surveillance than WeChat and have the same registration requirements. You could maybe try registering your own server, but do you want to have the possibility of questionable messages being saved on a server that you own when dealing with Chinese authorities? Any "oops, sorry" goes out the window w…

The parent is talking about communicating with friends and family. My point is not about evading surveillance, it's about not using one of the main tools of the CCP censorship apparatus.

If you're inside China and care about your safety, you would think twice about sending "questionable" messages even on the most secure channel because you're still physically vulnerable to rubber hose cryptanalysis.

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