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We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

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Re: We Chat, They Watch

#61

Post by [deleted] »

modeless wrote: post #43
madeofpalk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We one downfall of iMessage is that because they facilitate key exchange, Apple can add their own key to your profile and read all your messages. Though, my limited understanding of iMessage is that if you were to sniff the network traffic you could detect this.

There's another downfall of iMessage. If you have iCloud backup enabled, your iMessage encryption keys are saved to iCloud, allowing Apple to decrypt your messages. And even if you disable iCloud backup, Apple can still read your messages if the person you're talking to has iCloud backup enabled. This is not a secret, it's documented behavior. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 And it's not theoretical, because…

[deleted]

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#62

Post by namelosw »

FreakyT wrote: post #36
bgorman wrote: post #3

Did anyone actually think WeChat communications are secure? Do we have reason to believe iMessage and Whatsapp are more secure?

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

For me, this narrative seems to remind people don't over trust iMessage and WhatsApp, instead of "why don't you use Wechat they are not different anyway".

All the westerners I know in China don't send sensitive information through Wechat. It's just good to have a low trust stance by default.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#63

Post by MattGaiser »

serf wrote: post #47
MattGaiser wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Facebook run a team of secret police that can put a bag over your head and have you disappeared?

given that Apple has a secret police[0] group that was exposed during a previous iPhone leak, I don't know if the presupposition that Facebook has something similar is that outrageous. [0]: https://gizmodo.com/apple-gestapo-how-apple-hunts-down-leaks...

Unlike that article and its use of the word "gestapo", it is not an exaggeration to say that China has a secret police that can cause you to disappear.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#64

Post by danielheath »

zxcmx wrote: post #55
sandworm101 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted so the service providers themselves can't read the message content, yes, definitely. Although, technically the security guarantees are nil unless you verify safety numbers which I can guarantee almost nobody actually does. Except that there is no way to prove this. There is no way to prove that it isn't also sending a copy from the client back to the server. Whatsapp could deploy i…

That's still not a full answer, of course, your proprietary operating system or closed chipsets can spy on you. Absolutism isn't helpful IMHO, there is no true security in this world only degrees of trust and risk. You can always go one step further in securing a product but the first step still matters. I think there's real value in companies implementing e2e (and it's hard! it's super hard politically to get this d…

AFAIR Whatsapp does send a copy of your messages to facebook if the messages flag the apps internal 'sounds-like-criminal-activity' scanner.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#65

Post by intro-b »

briga wrote: post #48

Are there articles in China talking about how Google and Facebook spy on the content that all users send each other, including Chinese?

Considering how banned Google and Facebook products are in China, I'm not sure what you're getting at with this comment.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#68

Post by zxcmx »

danielheath wrote: post #64
zxcmx wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's still not a full answer, of course, your proprietary operating system or closed chipsets can spy on you. Absolutism isn't helpful IMHO, there is no true security in this world only degrees of trust and risk. You can always go one step further in securing a product but the first step still matters. I think there's real value in companies implementing e2e (and it's hard! it's super hard politically to get this d…

AFAIR Whatsapp does send a copy of your messages to facebook if the messages flag the apps internal 'sounds-like-criminal-activity' scanner.

Do you have a reference for this please? All I can find is this "false alarm": https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/08/more_on_backd...

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#69

Post by tedk-42 »

This is common knowledge. You can't send a picture of winnie the pooh without it being scanned first and deleted over the wire before being received.

People don't use WeChat to organise dissent against the government or for any kind of malicious or illegal activity. The intention is for well meaning folk to communicate and do business online.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#70

Post by KeepFlying »

dionian wrote: post #53
KeepFlying wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a whitepaper on iMessage's security as it was at a single point in time. It may be possible to verify this on a recent build with enough effort, but the average user will never be able to make that validation. So we can't be completely secure there. More secure than WeChat? ABSA-FREAKING-LUTELY. And do I trust Apple to remain secure? Yes. I'm mostly putting this here because I've heard people talking about se…

I know this is not really scientific, but: Apple's business model makes me more likely to trust them over Facebook.

Same. I'm more inclined to trust apple on privacy than most of the other big companies.
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