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We Chat, They Watch

citizenlab.ca

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Re: We Chat, They Watch

#51

Post by fiblye »

dvduval wrote: post #25

I communicate regularly with people in mainland China. For me the best policy is just don't say anything that I would be too concerned about being shared. Of course, my behavior is the same for other apps. Beyond government-level type hacking, I feel a little more safe on some of the Chinese apps, as I know they have a stronger hand in their ability to stop hackers and scammers.

> I feel a little more safe on some of the Chinese apps, as I know they have a stronger hand in their ability to stop hackers and scammers.

Hackers and scammers are no less prevalent on WeChat. Loads of people I know come in contact with them quite often. WeChat's monitoring isn't about stopping petty crime.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#52

Post by [deleted] »

the_pwner224 wrote: post #19

> Facebook spies on the content that all users send each other, including Chinese (and Canadians and Europeans and Indiana and Australians and Russians...) Sure, the article discusses other sketchy stuff that wechat is doing, but FB and Twitter and Reddit et. al. are all doing similar stuff too.

[deleted]

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#53

Post by dionian »

KeepFlying wrote: post #24
madeofpalk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean there’s a white paper on iMessage’s security, and there isn’t (i don’t think) on WeChat. WhatsApp’s encryption uses libsignal. The security qualities of iMessage and WhatsApp is known. It’s not of WeChat.

There's a whitepaper on iMessage's security as it was at a single point in time. It may be possible to verify this on a recent build with enough effort, but the average user will never be able to make that validation. So we can't be completely secure there. More secure than WeChat? ABSA-FREAKING-LUTELY. And do I trust Apple to remain secure? Yes. I'm mostly putting this here because I've heard people talking about se…

I know this is not really scientific, but: Apple's business model makes me more likely to trust them over Facebook.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#54

Post by Lammy »

kccqzy wrote: post #50

This is old news though, to most people using WeChat. For example, the same people documented similar findings last year: https://citizenlab.ca/2019/07/cant-picture-this-2-an-analysi... and three years ago: https://citizenlab.ca/2017/04/we-cant-chat-709-crackdown-dis...

Somebody says this every single time something nefarious gets revealed. Confirmation lets debate move past "whether or not it's happening".

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#55

Post by zxcmx »

sandworm101 wrote: post #35
Moodles wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted so the service providers themselves can't read the message content, yes, definitely. Although, technically the security guarantees are nil unless you verify safety numbers which I can guarantee almost nobody actually does.

>> WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted so the service providers themselves can't read the message content, yes, definitely. Although, technically the security guarantees are nil unless you verify safety numbers which I can guarantee almost nobody actually does. Except that there is no way to prove this. There is no way to prove that it isn't also sending a copy from the client back to the server. Whatsapp could deploy i…

That's still not a full answer, of course, your proprietary operating system or closed chipsets can spy on you.

Absolutism isn't helpful IMHO, there is no true security in this world only degrees of trust and risk. You can always go one step further in securing a product but the first step still matters.

I think there's real value in companies implementing e2e (and it's hard! it's super hard politically to get this done when the business sees little value for the effort and I know this because I've successfully fought to get e2e into a product).

The reality from my point of view is that it takes idealists inside to convince a commercial entity to lock themselves out of value (commercial surveillance) they could capture. I find a company's stance on e2e to be a valuable signal.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#56

Post by pengaru »

FreakyT wrote: post #36
bgorman wrote: post #3

Did anyone actually think WeChat communications are secure? Do we have reason to believe iMessage and Whatsapp are more secure?

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

> This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO.

What's dangerous is convincing yourself that proprietary systems won't betray your trust.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#57

Post by shasheene »

ycombonator wrote: post #29

Also check Zoom while you are at it.

You are being downvoted, maybe because Citizen Lab has already investigated Zoom before: https://citizenlab.ca/2020/04/move-fast-roll-your-own-crypto...

That report is one of the reasons why Zoom has such a poor reputation for security. The other being Zoom is largely Made In China software, so subject to the requirements of China's totalitarian government: to bolster domestic industries by stealing technology and R&D from around the world (by infiltrating companies, communication networks, computer servers and end-user devices using any software and individuals it has influence over, including hackers from Ministry of State Security and People's Liberation Army).

This is achieved through direct legal requirements to co-operate with Ministry of State Security corporate espionage (via China's 2017 National Intelligence Law), and more broadly through the China's attempts to switch the allegiances of all ethnically Chinese people through the overseas political interference organization called the "United Front Work Department" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTXPxWtl8Zw), and also through the Thousand Talents Plan.

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#58

Post by [deleted] »

the_pwner224 wrote: post #19

> Facebook spies on the content that all users send each other, including Chinese (and Canadians and Europeans and Indiana and Australians and Russians...) Sure, the article discusses other sketchy stuff that wechat is doing, but FB and Twitter and Reddit et. al. are all doing similar stuff too.

[deleted]

Re: We Chat, They Watch

#60

Post by adminprof »

pengaru wrote: post #56
FreakyT wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. WeChat has been proven to be a heavily monitored and censored network. Whatever security failings iMessage and WhatsApp have, they pale in comparison to what's in place for WeChat.

> This narrative of false equivalency is dangerous, IMO. What's dangerous is convincing yourself that proprietary systems won't betray your trust.

That's not what the parent post said, or inferred. Don't put words in others' mouths please.
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