Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#181

Post by nicbou » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

Non24Throw wrote: post #161

nicbou wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can gladly talk about financials. - I have health insurance. It's pretty far from free, and it's mandatory. I wrote a very detailed guide about how German health insurance works [1]. It's not comparable to the US system, and I want to write a separate guide to explain this more accurately. - My take-home is slightly above what a full time minimum wage worker would make. My expenses are around 1400€ a month. It coul…

> I'm happy to answer more questions. How much are you willing to tell us about the income source? I’m finding it difficult to think of anything that generates a small but consistent revenue stream with no babysitting, that is also completely unresponsive to low-effort attempts at scaling it. Usually if there’s no babysitting, that means low-effort scale. Or if it is hands-free but still can’t scale, it’s because you…

Here it is: https://allaboutberlin.com/

My niche is "make knowledge of Germany approachable to non-Germans".

This website works because moving to Germany implies paying for certain things, like health insurance. It also works well because most of the existing information is only available in German. This content also ages rather well, unlike programming tutorial or cellphone reviews for example. I don't need to constantly create new content.

I can't think of any other topic I understand this well that provides this much value to the readers. I know a thing or two about long distance motorcycle travel, but nothing I couldn't summarise into a few articles, and nothing that could generate affiliate income. I had some other ideas, but none of them withstood scrutiny.

Instead, I'd rather grow the website to cover more complex topics that I'm currently dealing with, such finance and retirement planning in Germany. It feels good to help people answer the same questions I had.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#182

Post by aspenmayer » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:08 PM UTC

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #179

jusssi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's tax progression, everyone's net income does not go up. That UBI money has to come from somewhere, and it comes from taxes. To fund the UBI, taxes will need to increase. So at some threshold level of income, flicking the UBI switch doesn't affect your net income. You get a same size of increase to your tax bill as you gain from the UBI benefit. Below the threshold you get a net increase, above it you get ne…

This, and the other comment about rents going up, is why you should tax rent and not income.

I have never heard of this concept, but I kind of like it on its face. Can you elaborate?

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#183

Post by nicbou » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #144

toomuchtodo wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a smaller scale, we should see where older folks on Social Security live. They have a form of UBI and also usually don’t or can’t work.

Or we could look at Germany. Our welfare system is largely unconditional. You're asked to find a job to pull your own weight, but you're not pushed too hard. You'll get an apartment, TV, utilities, health insurance and a few hundred euros a month for food & what ever you want to spend it on. If we did cut out the theoretical work-requirement and possibly stopped paying the rent and instead paid out money (but then qu…

> Our welfare system is largely unconditional.

ALG II is pretty far from unconditional. You only get it after you burn through all your savings, and it forces you to look for work. TV costs 17€ a month per household even if you don't have a TV. Health insurance is pretty far from free, though it matches your income.

Don't get me wrong, it's generally a pretty good system, but it's not unconditional.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#184

Post by nicbou » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #155

nicbou wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rode a motorcycle from Germany to Kazakhstan. That's the project that got me going, and the website picked up along the way. I didn't bring it up because that was paid for by my savings. I enjoyed this trip so much that I wanted to repeat it elsewhere, but the cost of living is higher in the places I want to see. Then COVID-19 happened and it delayed my trip. I got a short work contract to save up for it, and it me…

Epic trip man! Central Asia is extremely high on my list. I can not wait. > I find it cool that I get to choose how much of my life I want to exchange for money. I agree with you so much, and speaking at events and writing books about what I've done, by number one focus is helping people to realize work/life balance is often a choice.

It was a very difficult trip at times, especially after crossing the Caspian Sea. I don't regret it, but it was an adventure for sure.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#185

Post by DoreenMichele » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:18 PM UTC

nicbou wrote: post #51

Last year, I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting). I knew a life without work would be amazing, but I never expected it to be this great. I had much more time and energy to enjoy life. There was never a rush to do anything. I woke up when I wasn't tired. I could read in bed for an hour if it felt right. Sometimes I'd just walk 3-5 kilome…

I had something that was very close to basic income (income-generating website that doesn't require active babysitting).

There's a really, really critical difference here: You created something of value and UBI posits that we give everyone money simply for existing, which is inherently problematic for a long list of reasons. The most important problem is that "everyone" (or at least too many people) may become a leach and stop adding value to the system and then the whole thing may fall completely apart in a catastrophic fashion from which the world cannot recover.

The fact that you chose to keep being productive at stuff and life got cheaper and all that is great for your but doesn't generalize. About two-thirds of lottery winners are bankrupt within five years of winning the lottery.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#186

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:23 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #15

denzil_correa wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. You have to start somewhere before being "universal" and "basic".

And that's fair. But experimentally I would like to see the effects measured for a whole town, a city, or even a county.

Large study in Kenya currently going on https://www.givedirectly.org/research-at-give-directly/

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#187

Post by valesco » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:33 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #156

luckylion wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or we could look at Germany. Our welfare system is largely unconditional. You're asked to find a job to pull your own weight, but you're not pushed too hard. You'll get an apartment, TV, utilities, health insurance and a few hundred euros a month for food & what ever you want to spend it on. If we did cut out the theoretical work-requirement and possibly stopped paying the rent and instead paid out money (but then qu…

>So far, I haven't seen the explosion in creativity, entrepreneurship, volunteering etc that's usually promised. That's because most people don't have the ambition and discipline of Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos and if given the chance would rather bum around their whole life instead of work. I see the same thing in Austria and so do my friends living in other wealthy European countries with strong social nets. Most people…

But why would you get into unpleasant endeavors if they are not gratifying and you already have everything you need to live a basic life? This is ideology.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#188

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

asiachick wrote: post #42

BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

The problem I have with studies like this one is that they only measure the effects of getting a stipend during a limited amount of time with a limited amount of people. It's not universal and it's not basic. From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. But from an experimental perspective, they aren't getting the 'full package' of UBI. The participants aren't seeing in…

> From a non-scientific view point, of course giving people free money makes them feel better. It does? My belief, though I have no facts to back it up, is that some of people (but not all) would feel bad taking charity. For some people knowing they are effectively taking from others bothers them.

I guess it depends on your view on charity, and taking from others.

I happen to think I’m owed quite a bit of rent from all the externalities pushed on to me to allow the owning class to live of rent alone while I do the value crating labor in exchange for the lowest price they can get away with in a saturated labor market.

And I hope most people who are getting the short end of that stick also realize how they are being screwed over by the current system.

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#189

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #182

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, and the other comment about rents going up, is why you should tax rent and not income.

I have never heard of this concept, but I kind of like it on its face. Can you elaborate?

Just an extension of the land value tax really.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George

Re: Finnish basic income pilot improved wellbeing, study finds

#190

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Thu, May 07, 2020, 11:57 PM UTC

moduspol wrote: post #109

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't we already know how that works? Folks on a pension; folks in a state that provides stipends (e.g. Alaska); folks who are independently wealthy. Their behavior has been studied repeatedly, I imagine. In fact I'm confused why this keeps being 'tried' like its some new idea.

Also housewives, disability recipients, unemployed young adults still living at home, retirees. We've got several demographics that have their basic needs covered without working. Not all are directly comparable with working peers, but surely some likely outcomes could be predicted.

There was some studies in USA in the 70s which spurred som controversy due to an increased divorce rate. Ostensibly due to more housewives using the financial safety to beak free.

An interesting datapoint since you mentioned that group.