Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's because scrolling doesn't actually make sense in emacs or vim, if you've put some time into learning how to use them. In vim, for example, you would be much better off navigating with the keyboard than the mouse. You can leave bookmarks all over the file and jump between them with 2 keystrokes. There are also a multitude of navigation controls ({, }, gg, G, etc.) that save you the time of moving your hand in bet…
I'm genuinely curious: do you not read through code from top to bottom? That's a very common thing that I do, and using the mouse is a comfortable way of accomplishing it.
Making Emacs Popular Again
191–200 of 782 posts
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps adding JavaScript to the list of languages that you can extend Emacs with would be a good start - https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryExtensionLanguage
Or, emacs in the browser. Popular editors like VS Code use monaco and now github has codespaces [1] which is running in the browser. People live as much or more in the browser as the terminal these days, so bring the emacs sauce to where the people live. Maybe you could get some of the c compiled to web assembly, and the lisp would follow? It'd be neat to open a buffer to the page emacs lives in and start editing, ca…
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#193Does it need to be popular or need more users to become maintainers? I use emacs because I can't imagine using anything else that has half the features and is harder to extend. I can't imagine why it needs to be popular. It's a programming environment that happens to have a text editor built in. That appeals to some folks but I can't imagine why someone interested in writing for publication would choose it over Scriv…
Color me surprised! I'm turning into a stereotypical Linux greybeard but I must be true to my nature, and endorse Linux for writers.
There's this famous story, about the secretaries who mastered Emacs and preferred it to the other 'easier' administrative programs they were offered.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/gnu.emacs.help/QU6xN34ollo/K....
"Shel wrote Mailman in Lisp. Emacs-Lisp… Mailman was the Customer Service customer-email processing application for … four, five years? A long time, anyway. It was written in Emacs. Everyone loved it."
"People still love it. To this very day, I still have to listen to long stories from our non-technical folks about how much they miss Mailman. I'm not shitting you. Last Christmas I was at an Amazon party, some party I have no idea how I got invited to, filled with business people, all of them much prettier and more charming than me and the folks I work with here in the Furnace, the Boiler Room of Amazon. Four young women found out I was in Customer Service, cornered me, and talked for fifteen minutes about how much they missed Mailman and Emacs, and how Arizona (the JSP replacement we'd spent years developing) still just wasn't doing it for them."
Hell, there's even a 1-hour series on YouTube called "Emacs for Writers."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtieBc3KptU
Spoiler: I skimmed it and it's as I thought - it's largely about Emacs and org-mode. Honestly, I can't argue with the classics. Here's my pitch.
Writers of the world: You are information workers. That means you have problems with the organization of information, probably, and - related - information overload.
Let Emacs help you with this!
It has a mode, org-mode, which is usually overcomplicated, but is basically as simple as markdown (no, really). Has anyone ever walked away from Markdown because it was too difficult to understand? Probably not. It doesn't have to be any harder with org-mode. In fact, in the next two lines, I'll teach you about 95% of how I use it - everything, in two lines.
* an asterisk before a line makes it like a sublayer of the layer/line above it; if you're on a sublayer, add another asterisk to make a sublayer of a sublayer, and so on ad infinitum...
* press tab to expand a layer or a sublayer you are on; press tab again to contract or hide it
That's it! That's 95% of the value of org-mode right there. It's the simplest way to organize information, in my experience.
Now, there are other advantages too, like: Emacs works with plain text, and plain text is super portable (everything can read plain text), fast to load, and can even be a convenient method of organizing things, if you give your files descriptive names and learn to use 'ls' to list things. Because those files are plain text, they take up almost no space, so it's fine if your computer has a zillion of them, it'll be blazing fast.
I could go on, but these two things alone make Emacs worth your time, and there's plenty of other advantages, like using LaTeX to make PDF's, you can 'grow into' also.
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#194I wish Vim users and Emacs users would unite to improve Spacemacs. It's really a great idea IMO, have the editing power of Vim with the flexibility and elegance of the Emacs environment. Unfortunately when I tried Spacemacs (coming from Emacs) I kept bumping on rough edges with vim command emulation which ended up with me switching directly to the real vim. It's been about a year now and while I still think I was rig…
i tried spacemacs and it was like trying to fit a square peg on a round hole -- it just doesn't work properly.
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
And that's why it'll slowly go extinct.
Newness contradicts creativity, because the creative process needs to result in objects that last. In fact, because new designs create a future need for more new designs, it cannot last by definition! Think of shops that sell novelty items. Newness at an object level looks like novelty items. What is the quality of novelty items? How long do novelty items last?
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#196Popularity is more of a marketing problem than an editor problem. At the same time, if we compare emacs to vscode, vscode simply requires less configuration to get going. Given how much tooling exists in the javascript ecosystem, I think having a few plugins "just work" goes a long way. Asking users to configure emacs from scratch to have a reasonable editing experience in their programming language of their choice i…
> if we compare emacs to vscode, vscode simply requires less configuration to get going True, but then why do more people uses Vim than Emacs? Is it becase it's installed on servers and stuff? I wonder what percent of desktop programmers use vim or emacs who don't need to do devops.
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
And that's why it'll slowly go extinct.
Been, what, 30 years, people saying that... Slowly, very slowly indeed.
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is absolutely true. However, if you can make a tool more learnable for new users without sacrificing its optimization for power users, you should. One way to do that is to not gratuitously invent new terms, and to use terms people are familiar with. Using conventions like "M-x" throughout the documentation, even with a note at the front of the manual that "We refer to Alt as Meta for historical reasons.", is nee…
There's some bad stuff in emacs but to concern yourself with Meta as opposed to M- is plain silly. > if you can make a tool more learnable for new users without sacrificing its optimization for power users, you should Yes, but it's incredibly difficult and frankly the emacs devs have enough to do (and they do it well), and UI design is a very different skillset from programming. Frankly the learning curve for emacs i…
I don't really buy this line of argument in general, but I think Josh is a particularly poor candidate to pull rank on because they don't contribute to open source. I don't know Josh, but I recognize his name from his open source contributions.
If you don't recognize Josh's name, you can get an idea of some of what he's done from his website, which is linked in his bio: https://joshtriplett.org/
> I work on Linux, primarily on the RCU subsystem and on Sparse-related code. I maintain the rcutorture test module.
> I co-maintain the X C Binding (XCB). I developed the XML-XCB format to describe the X Window System protocol. I also work on other Xorg projects on Freedesktop.org.
> I maintained the Sparse semantic parser and static analysis tool for C for several years, before passing it on to Christopher Li.
> I maintain several packages in the Debian project.
Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#199Re: Making Emacs Popular Again
#200Earlier quoted context omitted.
Developer experience is more than just technical too. I know some package authors (and myself personally) find themselves very disillusioned with the GNU approach to contribution, especially regarding licensing and copyright assignment.
Re copyright, what would you prefer? Alternatively, what would you even do with the copyright to your fixes and additions to GNU emacs?
it's a fact of life for developers with projects anywhere near the GNU-scape that if you don't GNU it, you'll catch a lot of hatred, even worse if you choose to avoid licensing all together -- and gods help you if you choose a tongue-in-cheek licensing agreement like WTFPL.
at the end of the day a lot of people just want to contribute meaningfully to a project that they use and enjoy, but the headache of licensing and catching flak by choosing the wrong one (and since all the communities have opposing thoughts, they're all the wrong one to certain folks), it just becomes easy to 'forget to contribute' -- especially when your patch or whatever is working fine locally and there is little practical incentive to catch that much heat.
I think the legalese issues turns a lot of would-be contributors into local-patcher type developers, and then they leave for greener pastures once what they needed patched is on their own machine -- especially for projects like emacs where 90 percent of development is going to be towards extensions.
...and I say all this from a position of love and admiration for GNU and the FSF.