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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#171
post #138

What makes Emacs attractive to me is that it's a programming environment which you can modify on the fly. At least, that's what I have read, I've never actually done it myself. Visual Studio Code, the editor that I use daily, is based on Javascript (Typescript) but I have yet to see a page by Microsoft explaining to me that I can quickly whip up a script and execute it in my editor. From what I understand you need to…

FWIW, Emacs does support navigation via arrow keys by default, unless I am misunderstanding what you mean.

Ten minutes after I posted my message I just realized that the concept of a Macro has been around since the dawn of computing and is in large part responsible for the meteoric rise of Microsoft (along with a lot of viruses)

What I mean is I'm looking for a editor with macro capabilities that can be programmed in, say, Javascript, Python or Lua.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with Emacs has been a steady upward trajectory, gaining understanding and access to functionality. I now use CIDER and TRAMP every working day, and no true equivalent exists for any other editor (though many are catching up to CIDER, due to Clojure being the better lisp!). The biggest problems with Emacs, to me, are the rendering performance, the lack of sufficient threading, the default keyboard-access…

As someone who claims to be using "the better lisp" what is it about elisp that you find "unergonimic and sad"? Genuinely curious.

At least when I've written elisp, the default datastructures have involved a lot of work to construct and manipulate, and when you do it right, the ones you've chosen for convenience may perform so poorly that you have to go back and change them to get your program to complete in time.

Namespaces for vars and functions being not a language feature is inconvenient. Unless you are using fakespace or intern-symbol (it seems hardly anyone does), every symbol in your program needs to include its namespace information in order to avoid it being accidentally invoked by somebody else, or accidentally convincing somebody that it's part of the base distribution.

In Clojure, it's many little things:

Keywords are callable, allowing you to evaluate a keyword on an associative collection like hash-map, or traverse, in an obvious and intuitive way, into a nested associative structure with the threading macros "->" and "->>".

The default data structures are fast (for what they are) and hard to misuse: unless you ask politely, you are not going to mutate something your function was passed passed without noticing. seq, the interface for sequences (vectors, lists, pairs from an associative structure), pairs well with destructuring in let and macros/syntax that does binding.

Things like 'let' don't use more parentheses than necessary, which has a greater impact on readability than you'd think. The use of vector syntax for bindings rather than list syntax adds a little bit of syntactic texture that makes reading programs more ergonomic.

I think Clojure may not be as unfamiliar as it seems at first to a person who's written other lisps before, but I have yet to meet somebody who prefers the experience of writing Scheme or Common Lisp to Clojure; nor anyone who prefers Elisp to Common Lisp.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#173

> "Perhaps we should implement a mode that puts cosmetics on Emacs so it will appeal to those who judge by the surface of things." I'm sorry to react to first quote, but as I kept reading I kept coming back to it. My thoughts on that : how you present yourself is how you want (and are going) to be judged. In general I think Emacs has been user-hostile, as said here, just by its terminology. Nobody outside a minority…

> Nobody outside a minority of devs refers to Ctrl+c as C-c. First, C-c is not Ctrl + c; second, it really helps to use compact notation when you read a lot of keybindings; and third, this is approximately the most minor complication in the learning curve of Emacs (otherwise nobody would learn vim, with its insane key mappings and invisible mode transitions).

[deleted]

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#174

> "Perhaps we should implement a mode that puts cosmetics on Emacs so it will appeal to those who judge by the surface of things." I'm sorry to react to first quote, but as I kept reading I kept coming back to it. My thoughts on that : how you present yourself is how you want (and are going) to be judged. In general I think Emacs has been user-hostile, as said here, just by its terminology. Nobody outside a minority…

My keyboard doesn't have a 'ctrl' key, it has 'control'. I don't know why removing all the vowels from the word is considered more 'correct' than referring to the key by the first letter. Both 'C-' and 'Ctrl+' are ways of shortening the word.

It also takes what, five minutes to get accustomed to? Even old dogs can learn this new trick.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#175
Making it more popular is going to make it worse. Already in this thread people want javascript shoved into it. Emacs can be improved in many ways, but if it strives to be popular the opposite will happen.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#176
post #73
post #51

How on earth was RMS unfamiliar with the existence of Org Mode, and how on earth was RMS unfamiliar with the concept of outliners, and why on earth, when he finally figured out what Org Mode did, was his immediate response to be super dismissive because it wasn't something that he's interested in using personally? He sounds like some random person spewing random subjective opinions about things, rather than the origi…

> How on earth was RMS unfamiliar with the existence of Org Mode, and how on earth was RMS unfamiliar with the concept of outliners, and why on earth, when he finally figured out what Org Mode did, was his immediate response to be super dismissive because it wasn't something that he's interested in using personally? He seems out of touch even with modern emacs packages. He doesn't use any of them, doesn't even know w…

> He seems out of touch even with modern emacs packages. He doesn't use any of them

And he believes the right thing for the core Emacs-developers to do is to spend their time trying get everyone in MELPA (a modern package repo, with a modern GUI, based on modern tools and workflows) to instead move their packages to ELPA, with all the change in tools, modernism’s and workflows that entails.

He seriously believes this is important because MELPA isn’t GNU, and that’s all he cares about. It’s not enough to be open-source and free. You must be GNU, or it doesn’t matter.

He may add things of value still, but I refuse to believe it’s not overshadowed by all the backwardisms he constantly tries to impose on the core developers actually doing the dirty work.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#177
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Popularity means more users and more contributors. I guess most of the core emacs devs are greybeards who started programming in the 80s or earlier, so what happens when they grow too old? Who will replace them?

> I guess most of the core emacs devs are greybeards who started programming in the 80s or earlier, so what happens when they grow too old? Who will replace them? What makes you say that? I don't think this is true. Not among the package maintainers anyways, and also of note here is remacs - I can't imagine greybeards programming in rust. And popularity does not always mean more contributors, not when they are just t…

> I can't imagine greybeards programming in rust.

Why not?

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#178
post #39
post #37

I think that the Emacs concept is really good, but it clearly has a lot of problems that make it altogether unattractive to new potential users. - The keybindings are not the standard CUA ones. Even with Cua Mode, every page on the internet still suggests using the regular old Emacs keybindings. There's weird conflicts between some packages, especially if you use non-default keybinds like Evil. The defaults are not e…

> To get anything approaching the productivity of an editor like Sublime or VS Code, you have to spend hours installing packages, learning their unique keybindings, and sorting out conflicts. Isn't it the same with VIM or other free editors?

To be fair these days you come far by just installing ’lsp-mode’.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#179
One thing is to make the keyboard shortcuts better.

Get rid of the ancient and archaic method of Ctrl-C to start a command chord. Reserve that for basic commands like copy and paste.

Instead, use the slash, Ctrl-/ to start a command chord. This way, you can use all the nifty shortcuts you want, and still not interfere with common commands.

Another feature is to use Ctrl-Spacebar to allow a search of command aliases.

Like, highlight your words, then hit Ctrl-Spacebar, then type “upper”, and it’ll do a dynamic search for all matches, and one of those matches is to make the selection uppercase.

This can be useful for all types of commands and personalized macros.

But then, the other problem for Emacs, is that Visual Studio Code is pretty damn good. And it also works on Linux. Its memory footprint is really high, taking about 85 MBs of RAM, but Emacs takes like 30 MBs, so it’s less than 3x more, for much better features. But, it’s not like I’m using a 20 year old laptop anymore.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is wrong actually. I find it harder to scan my eyes over Ctrl+Alt+a than C-M-a (notice that Apple, too, uses single glyphs for modifier keys).

I've used macOS for ten years now and I'm still regularly confused by Apple's modifier key glyphs.

Those aren't "Apple's glyphs", they're part of the ISO/IEC 9995 standard for common keyboard layouts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995 Perhaps Emacs and the Linux desktop should start using these characters by default, seeing as they now have good Unicode support.
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