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Making Emacs Popular Again

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Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#61

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

zozbot234 wrote: post #24
NelsonMinar wrote: post #9

The kindest thing we could do for future programmers is let Emacs and all tty-oriented editors die. There are much better options now. UI has improved a lot since the 1970s, let's embrace it.

Even by the standards of terminal-based applications, Emacs is far from intuitive or attractive - the text-based IDE's from Microsoft ("Quick" series) and Borland ("Turbo" series) were significantly easier to use. (As another example where *nix systems could improve a lot, the Midnight Commander tty app is great, but still not quite as intuitive as the old 'DOS Shell'. Weirdly enough, I find that other TUI apps, such…

The issue isn't "intuitive or attractive". It's something more like "powerful, learnable, extensible". Nothing else scores as highly on that triad of qualities as Emacs.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#63

Post by MereInterest »

acdha wrote: post #22
taeric wrote: post #2

Oddly, I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users. Few changes really needed. Just stop intimidating people before they get involved.

> I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users I've worked with a lot of Emacs fans but everyone describes it as having a hefty learning curve. If you tell people it's appealing and the first experience is unpleasant, all you're going to do is convince them that you aren't a reliable source of advice. I think it would be much better to focus on easing that initial s…

Exactly. Whenever a new developer asks what editor I use, I emphasize that while I use emacs, it has a huge learning curve. It has different conventions than any other text editor, because it predates those conventions.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#64

Post by pkulak »

gmfawcett wrote: post #41
itchynosedev wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! You know what takes it to the next level? Sticky keys! Accessibility feature in macos where modal / control keys will "stick" for the next keypress (non-modal / control) and then release. Double tap will stick it for the duration until the next tap on the same key. Essentialy, double tap control key and move around with n and p keys, kill with k, move more, yank somewhere else with y. All without touching co…

Your suggestion sounds a little bit like Emacs' god-mode: https://github.com/emacsorphanage/god-mode

Or evil mode.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#65

Post by celeritascelery »

dmortin wrote: post #23
bitwize wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to tell the story of how secretaries in the 70s learned how to use and customize Multics Emacs with Emacs Lisp; they were told they were simply customizing their editor, not programming it.

I have doubts about this. Maybe they did some simple variable settings, but I doubt they wrote proper lisp programs.

That's the really cool thing about Emacs. The only difference between "simple variable settings" and "proper lisp programs" is a difference of scale, not a difference of kind. Variable settings are just as much code as anything else in Emacs.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#66

Post by antipaul »

sdegutis wrote: post #13

There is a human aspect to software, and when you forget that, and try to force people to adapt to software instead of adapting software to people, you come up with software that naturally is difficult and unpleasant for people to use. Emacs is built on a philosophy of human nature that deemphasizes the subjective personal experience in favor of (a limited group of people’s theory of) the objective ideal experience.…

Indeed, emphasizing the human aspect is the right thing to do.

Unless we do, emacs will slowly die.

No one wants that, neither RMS nor any passionate emacs user including me.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#67

Post by jmoss20 »

jrimbault wrote: post #4

> "Perhaps we should implement a mode that puts cosmetics on Emacs so it will appeal to those who judge by the surface of things." I'm sorry to react to first quote, but as I kept reading I kept coming back to it. My thoughts on that : how you present yourself is how you want (and are going) to be judged. In general I think Emacs has been user-hostile, as said here, just by its terminology. Nobody outside a minority…

I don't think emacs is "user-hostile" on purpose. You have to keep in mind, it's nearly 45 years old. This is almost unprecedented in computing.

Today's users expect different things than users did in the 70s (who expected different things than users in the 80s, 90s, so on). Emacs has been relatively consistent through time, which has been a huge boon to emacs users. The tradeoff is against current user's intuitions -- for better or worse, emacs does not work like other popular software today.

Calling this "user-hostile" comes off somewhat entitled. Emacs developers in the 70s/80s/90s/00s simply didn't know enough about today's users to cater to us, even if they wanted to. That's hardly their fault.

So, todays way and the emacs way have diverged some, and it does take a bit of effort to learn. Not because emacs hates you! But because emacs is ancient. The (objective, non-stockholm-syndrome) reward for your efforts to understand it are a) mastery of a system useful enough to survive this long, and b) mastery of a system that isn't likely to change out from under you.

Re: Making Emacs Popular Again

#70

Post by taeric »

acdha wrote: post #22
taeric wrote: post #2

Oddly, I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users. Few changes really needed. Just stop intimidating people before they get involved.

> I think you will make Emacs appealing to users when you start asserting it is appealing to users I've worked with a lot of Emacs fans but everyone describes it as having a hefty learning curve. If you tell people it's appealing and the first experience is unpleasant, all you're going to do is convince them that you aren't a reliable source of advice. I think it would be much better to focus on easing that initial s…

Have you ever used some of the other popular choices? Pleasant is rarely an accurate term for computer use.

And I'm not saying lie. Just stop scaring people away. Emacs is by far one of the most empowering programs out there. Market that.

She realize that it is marketing. You want to build a market of users? You have to have some marketing.

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