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The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

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Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#111
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general for SaaS, does it make sense to let customers choose between two (or more) pricing models, depending on their needs? Does this cause too much complication for the business? Curious why I haven't noticed schemes like this, other than at "enterprise" tiers where the customer is paying a lot for something closer to a custom solution and prices are negotiated.

I don't know about that. I suspect, generally speaking, per-user billing does not work for the vast majority of SaaS. It can really only work well in communication tools, where (1) most organizations receive a lot of value, (2) there's a network effect in play, and (3) expenses incurred by the provider generally correlate with the number of users. Slack. Jira. Notion. Etc. For an APM tool like Apollo, only one of the…

Per-user billing works when the value is obvious and the price is low.

If you have a B2B SaaS product your goal should be optimizing for getting the maximum users in an organization. The more people who use your product:

- The harder it is to move off your product

- If people like the product, when they leave, they'll evangelize your product to their next employer

- It's less likely that different teams/business units/etc will try a competitor's product because there's no seats available for them (and the money is going to come out of their budget anyway--they might as well decide on the product)

- You're not causing friction for team leads who have to justify budgets every year

How many people have worked somewhere where there's 50 seats paid for and you can't go to 51 because that takes you from "Pro" to "Enterprise" at a huge jump? There's way too much shenanigans that goes on because companies make paying them money painful.

I've been working on evaluations of several enterprise developer tools in the last month and without fail all have licensing requirements that are per-seat and painful. The result has been that instead of the whole organization embracing the tool, a much smaller set of users is going to get it. The thing that's crazy is that the cost to the SaaS provider has nothing to do with the number of users.

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#112
post #12

Once you lower the price of a product, you can never raise it again. I heard that on/around HN at some point and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. There's a reason why chip bags get smaller, why new versions that seem identical to the old come out, why Tommy Hilfiger will never be a prestige brand again. And it's because customers don't tolerate raising prices.

> There's a reason why .. Tommy Hilfiger will never be a prestige brand again. And it's because customers don't tolerate raising prices.

Tommy Hilfiger used to sell high end ($1000+) foul weather gear stuff for offshore (ocean) yacht racing in the 1980s. Briefly in the 1990s they were the preppy kid's branding of choice. Everyone bought at least five branded tshirts at JC Pennys or whatever at the mall each year along with Gap and Mossimo and Nautica. They are now the premium brand at Ross dress for less.

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A park in Indiana, Holiday World, did something sorta the opposite. They figured out how much the average guest paid for drinks, then raised the ticket prices that much but made all drinks free in the park. It was a huge success. People expect ticket prices to go up occasionally and they expect to be gouged for drinks. By getting "free" drinks, it felt like a huge value. (At least for me when I visited.) I bet it mad…

By what metric was it a success? Drinks, even non alcoholic ones, have phenomenal margins, and if you're stuck in a theme park or sports stadium, for hours, you basically have to purchase one. I'm a bit surprised this makes financial sense unless they really went for it. For similar reasons, restaurants are hurting extra hard right now because people don't order drinks as often with delivery or takeout.

> They figured out how much the average guest paid for drinks

It sounds like the margin was part of the ticket price increase. So it was a success in that more people came to the park because they thought they were getting a better deal and were happier about it because "free drinks".

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#114

I didn't know about the Red Cross and its donuts. The example I've always used for this is helping a friend move. If the friend asks "hey, will you help me move? I'm buying pizza and beer afterwards!" I will more than likely say yes, even though I can buy my own pizza and beer. If they instead say "hey, will you help me move? I'll pay you $21.58 for your time," I'd probably bristle. Even though that might be the equi…

Yeah for me the hangout with the pizza and beer is the real reward!

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#115

I didn't know about the Red Cross and its donuts. The example I've always used for this is helping a friend move. If the friend asks "hey, will you help me move? I'm buying pizza and beer afterwards!" I will more than likely say yes, even though I can buy my own pizza and beer. If they instead say "hey, will you help me move? I'll pay you $21.58 for your time," I'd probably bristle. Even though that might be the equi…

You got weird friends, no one's ever had to ask or bribe me, I would just offer to help. In turn I'd also be uncomfortable asking others to do manual labor for me, if they didn't offer when I said I was moving I wouldn't ask. Buying them supper after would be a given, no bribe required.

I think you've badly missed the point.

If you take issue with an analogy, try one that fits your experiences better.

You offer to help, and then your friend says: "awesome, afterwards I'll buy you pizza and beer" vs "awesome, afterwards I'll pay you $21.58".

The order of offering vs asking for help wasn't at issue in the analogy.

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#116

I didn't know about the Red Cross and its donuts. The example I've always used for this is helping a friend move. If the friend asks "hey, will you help me move? I'm buying pizza and beer afterwards!" I will more than likely say yes, even though I can buy my own pizza and beer. If they instead say "hey, will you help me move? I'll pay you $21.58 for your time," I'd probably bristle. Even though that might be the equi…

You got weird friends, no one's ever had to ask or bribe me, I would just offer to help. In turn I'd also be uncomfortable asking others to do manual labor for me, if they didn't offer when I said I was moving I wouldn't ask. Buying them supper after would be a given, no bribe required.

> Buying them supper after would be a given, no bribe required.

I think this is actually kind of the point. By offering to provide pizza, you're casually confirming that you're still operating in the paradigm where friends help each other out without looking too closely at the balance sheet, as opposed to offering nothing (awkward) or paying them (turning it into a transaction).

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#117
This is a good cautionary tale and one I've seen played out in the tech industry with food. Even in the 80's it wasn't uncommon for a tech company to have a "beer bust" on Friday's where drinks and snacks were served as a social gathering for employees at the end of the work week. It was a turning point in employee relations when the VP of HR at Sun cancelled the weekly beer bust. Similarly at Google when they decided to scale back the legendary "mini-kitchens" full of snacks, "healthy alternatives" that were slowly pared down.

One sociologist I read wrote, and I'm paraphrasing, "Sharing food with another is an action of great significance. Evolutionary, the sharing of food by hunter gatherers was more significant than sex in establishing a mutually bonding relationship." They went on to discuss the importance that meals played in our history and why we "throw a feast" to welcome heroes, and the Jesus' "big reveal" happened at a meal.

The main point was that when you share food with someone you trigger a very ancient and well established mechanism. Conversely, when you stop sharing food with someone, you signal their ancient brain "I don't trust you any more, we aren't friends."

Now whether or not that thought/emotion comes to the surface, it's very clear that the for many people the change from "sharing food with you" to "not sharing food with you" changes how they see their relationship with you. What is perhaps worse is that the damage is instant and irreversible. Even if you start sharing again, the people you stopped sharing with, even temporarily[1], will no longer feel the same trust that they felt before.

At tech companies those people leave and eventually you have all employees who only remember the current system and so you're at a new "normal."

Bottom line, taking away "free" food is waaaay more impactful on company morale/relationships than you would ever imagine unless you had researched it. Thus, it happens over and over again. And even though I know a company is just trying to make me like it by giving me free food, I can't keep myself from being positively effected by it. That response is buried somewhere deep inside my head that doesn't allow for excision.

[1] Yes, there are ways to temporarily stop and not disconnect but that involves messaging before one stops sharing to both provide the external reason for the change and the conditions on which the change would revert back to sharing.

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#118
post #7

See also: monkey grape experiment https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2014/02/27/283348422/that-... I heard a related story (I'll add source if I find it) where monkeys received 2 grapes every day. This was increased to 3 grapes per day for one week. When they returned to the normal 2 grapes per day, the monkeys threw poo at the experimenters.

UBI studies in a nutshell

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#119
post #90
post #57

I can call out one example of a poorly executed price raise: Apollo Engine ( https://www.apollographql.com/pricing ) There was a time when they charged for data points/performance traces ingested into the system. At our scale, we were paying around $100/month. We were prepared to scale that to their, I think it was, $550/month plan when our usage got that high. They relatively recently changed their structure to char…

From an SE/SO professional, can I rant here for a moment? Marketing and Product rag on Sales a lot for discounting. Nevermind the fact that we own the touchpoints with an account, so it only makes sense that we'd know what any individual account needs. I've had this issue with Marketing and Product professionals since I started in Sales, and even more-so when I took over Sales Enablement and Sales Ops. For one, prici…

I've been on both sides so I understand your perspective.

Everyone wants to sell on _value_ and in an ideal world you could go up the food chain and say, "hey, if we spend $10,000 on this, we save $100,000 in employee hours". That should be the easiest decision in the world, especially if you could come back in a year and figure out it was really $105,000.

However budgeting in just about any organization I've been involved in doesn't work like that. You ask for $10,000 and there's no budget for it. Even if there is, there's no guarantee that next year you're not going to have to "tighten belts" and "sharpen pencils".

Re: The Cost of Free Doughnuts: 70 Years of Regret

#120
post #18
post #12

Once you lower the price of a product, you can never raise it again. I heard that on/around HN at some point and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. There's a reason why chip bags get smaller, why new versions that seem identical to the old come out, why Tommy Hilfiger will never be a prestige brand again. And it's because customers don't tolerate raising prices.

Cars are a major counter example. Over time the Honda Accord, Honda Civic, and Honda Fit all started at about the same size but the current Accord and Civic have grown significantly larger and thus more expensive. The idea is to let brands grow up with people, so someone who bought a civic at 30 can likely afford a slightly nicer civic at 35, and also needs an incentive to upgrade. A few well received wine brands for…

Disneyland isn't a great example to use for pricing, because it is a fixed resource. Demand goes up simply because population is increasing and so is their reach. They don't really need to improve the quality of the park at all.

In fact, I'd say they are still undercharging. The park will still fill up on peak days. They have been trying to fix this by increasing the prices of passes and decreasing the days they allow you in. But it's not working (current situation not withstanding).

Disneyland is a fixed resource, so it doesn't really apply to pricing discussions of resources that can be variable, like SaaS products.

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