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IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

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Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the amount of attention paid by scholars does not make a field of inquiry more or less valid. It does apply to all science. Do you think science does not suffer from fads and community bias? When did we move past that? Even a very rigorous field like mathematics suffers from these problems. Cf. Mochizuki getting published in Nature or the controversies about the foundations of symplectic geometry…

If you are just trying to make the argument that science has made mistakes, there is no argument, I agree. So theoretically relativity and Newtonian physics could be untrue. But it's highly unlikely. I would argue that a combination of the simplicity of study of a phenomenon, the amount it's been studied, and the consistency of the results of that study correlate with the likelihood of it being true. IQ is very simpl…

It is my understanding that all of the evidence we have for IQ is statistical in nature: it's a robust correlate. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that it is strong correlation with an innate, biological, causative metric that closely corresponds to a general, popular notion of "intelligence"--which is of course the use that pop psychology immediately attaches to it.

IMHO, the most biting criticism of IQ is that we (that is the psychology community at large) expect such a thing to exist, and so we treat anything that looks like it might fit that glove, no matter how poorly, as evidence of its existence. Our scientific methods aren't really capable of forcibly rebutting such a theory--see the existence of parapsychology, where psi is statistically known to exist (unless you're a skeptic). See https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-o... for a discussion of this phenomenon.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't propose that compassion towards the less clever will raise their IQ. When I say that compassion is constructive, I mean that compassion paves the road towards mutual understanding and social harmony.

I think there are more important things than compassion, e.g. work/status, marriage and family. These are also easy to measure and to enforce by comparison. How do you force everyone to be nice? And is that worth it? Is the threat of being sued for "not being nice enough" an improvement for society? I doubt it. Children being treated nicely actually predicts worse, not better outcome. https://econtent.hogrefe.com/doi…

> How do you force everyone to be nice?

> Is the threat of being sued for "not being nice enough" an improvement for society?

I never said anything about force, nor certainly anything about suing people for not being nice (which is so ridiculous it barely warrants a response...) You're reading a great deal more into what I said than what I actually said, and in a very uncharitable way.

> I think there are more important things than compassion, e.g. work/status, marriage and family

Smart people will be more likely to support social policies that help people in those regards if they are taught to be compassionate from a young age. I'm earnestly surprised to receive pushback on what I'm suggesting, and it's probably because you don't understand what I'm suggesting. Maybe providing a concrete example of what I propose will help you understand what I mean: one possibility is to encourage clever kids to participate in intellectually inclusive extramural activities where they can form social bonds with people less clever than themselves. Track and field or the swim team are two good options, contrasted with science olympiad (which is generally inaccessible to dull children.)

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read it. Learn history. Learn how sociology works. Nah don’t bother. It’s HN.

I read it, and besides one paragraph (which presents a straw man) it has nothing to do with whether IQ is a psuedoscientific swindle and everything to do with whether eugenicists used IQ.

Sure you did buddy. Sure you did. The whole idea of the SAT was an expansive control of capital when the USA grew too large for word-of-mouth recommendation systems.

But you knew that too right? You also knew that it was basically designed to keep undesirables out of the capital class too, right? Guess who those people were.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#114
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is more like lead additive in gasoline. Unnecessary to the main purpose, created with very dubious motivations, yet for decades people took it for granted that you can’t do without.

The first real IQ test (the Binet iq test) was created to help identify special ed kids so they could receive special tutoring. The question about IQ is does it measure anything? Is it predictive? And can that be useful? And the answer all three of those questions is obviously yes.

And if you actually read Binet, you’d know that he explicitly warned against its usage beyond what he designed it for.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are just trying to make the argument that science has made mistakes, there is no argument, I agree. So theoretically relativity and Newtonian physics could be untrue. But it's highly unlikely. I would argue that a combination of the simplicity of study of a phenomenon, the amount it's been studied, and the consistency of the results of that study correlate with the likelihood of it being true. IQ is very simpl…

It is my understanding that all of the evidence we have for IQ is statistical in nature: it's a robust correlate. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that it is strong correlation with an innate, biological, causative metric that closely corresponds to a general, popular notion of "intelligence"--which is of course the use that pop psychology immediately attaches to it. IMHO, the most biting criticism of IQ is tha…

I'm not sure what non statistical evidence of IQ would be? Would you mind elaborating on this.

> I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that it is strong correlation with an innate, biological, causative metric that closely corresponds to a general, popular notion of "intelligence"--which is of course the use that pop psychology immediately attaches to it.

I don't think you need to correlate IQ with anything physical for it to exist. But it's been correlated with genes, amount of white matter, size of different regions in the brain etc...

Maybe we have a different idea of what IQ means.

I would say the IQ "theory" could be broken down into a couple of distinct hypotheses.

1. Problem solving is a skill/ability - People who are good at solving some types of problems, will be better than average as solving other types of problems.

2. We can test this ability - We can write down problems and ask them to solve them. Because of 1 this tells us how good they will be at solving other problems.

3. This ability helps with some real world tasks - The real world has lots of problems that benefit from problem solving ability.

When we put together this means we can predict a portion of someone's ability at a real world task we care about (like physics or software development) by estimating their problem solving ability through a test. Based on the evidence we currently have I don't know how this couldn't be true.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it, and besides one paragraph (which presents a straw man) it has nothing to do with whether IQ is a psuedoscientific swindle and everything to do with whether eugenicists used IQ.

Sure you did buddy. Sure you did. The whole idea of the SAT was an expansive control of capital when the USA grew too large for word-of-mouth recommendation systems. But you knew that too right? You also knew that it was basically designed to keep undesirables out of the capital class too, right? Guess who those people were.

Clearly this argument is spiraling away from the original premise of whether IQ pseudoscientific into what feels like a flamewar. There are a couple of HN guidelines that try to keep that from happening that I think would have helped prevent this.

> Be kind. Don't be snarky.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals

> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#118
post #3

I can't even bring myself to read this. After perusing and seeing it gets so emotional (bringing up eugenics, morality, etc), I have a hard time believing it's going to be objective. "There is no significant statistical association between IQ and hard measures such as wealth." So... you're saying that people with an IQ of 60 are equally wealthy as those with an IQ of 110? I understand getting frustrated about misappl…

I find it really naive to treat science like some kind of objective methodology that can output unbiased data. Its complete fantasy. "Science" is much more of a set of institutions and social regard for those institutions than an objective methodology. We often just want to throw money and scientists at an issue, and get out good "science" but thats like managers hiring 50% more programmers for 50% better/more code,…

I don't think math is political.

A scientific theory could be considered political only if you think Popper's definition is fundamentally flawed. I don't think his definition is wrong though and i have yet to see someone arguing over the basics since the 80s (nowadays its more bayesians vs frequentists).

> I find it really naive to treat science like some kind of objective methodology that can output unbiased data. Its complete fantasy.

No bayesian scientific will treat science like this.

> "Science" is much more of a set of institutions and social regard for those institutions than an objective methodology

Wrong, there is methodology. Scientific consensus is still the best approximation of the reality we have. It might be wrong, but it is wrong for the right reasons.

> We often just want to throw money and scientists at an issue, and get out good "science" but thats like managers hiring 50% more programmers for 50% better/more code, we know the details are what matters.

Pad argument, this is not comparable.

> At the end of the day, "science" in the real world is a lot of professor vying for tenure, caught in publish or perish, funding coming from self-preserving institutions, and a bunch of overworked grad students. Its a lot of companies making a buck, too.

Yes, good point.

> Everything is political! Everything. If you see something like science, religion, art, anything as apolitical, that probably means its just reinforcing prevailing politics.

I see math as apolitical. Tell me how i'm reinforcing capitalism and liberalism. If you can't, this argument is invalid.

> Check out Anarchistic Epistemology if this idea is of any interest.

Ok, now i see, why you're against the scientific method. Popper's falsification have been largely improved by epistemologist thanks or Feyerabend's critics, and he is right about the "consistency" criterion that was dumped in all fields except medecine and social science. However this epistemologic theory is old and its argument were already based on old discoveries (galileo, newton) or misrepresentation of newer ones (i think a dozen papers were written against his vision of Einstein, and i find his critics on Feynman really undeserved). If you have knowledge of any epistemologic book[0] on this theory updated with new knowledge i'd like to read it.

[0] Or any living philosopher since nowadays its more about short papers than books in the philosophical field.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#119
post #5

IQ is just a metric from taking a standardized test. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding that. It's like being mad about people's SAT scores. It's not like IQ is even used for anything important, people don't put it on their resumes or anything.

> IQ is just a metric from taking a standardized test. I don't know why people have a hard time understanding that. It's like being mad about people's SAT scores. Metric for what ? That is the point. The main argument as I understand is that "intelligence" is not something one-dimensional that can be measured with a number. If IQ tests were a simple pass/fail filter for detecting some kind of learning disability, sur…

>Metric for what?

Metric for capability. Even though imperfect, IQ appears to reasonable good predictor of how capable a person is in learning a new task. The better way is of course to actually tech the person to find out how well he can learn it, which is time consuming. High IQ people can easily learn and do most jobs, low IQ people cannot.

>How many people parrot Charles Murray to justify their racism with "science"?

Charles Murray just says that races have statistically different IQ. This is different from my understood definition of racism which manifest as: "I will not hire you because you belong to race X"

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