Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto • Hacker News Board

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#51

Post by CaveTech » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #46

cactus2093 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... condo neighborhoods are exactly that medium density housing. Every city does need more condos in their existing neighborhoods if populations are able to grow. (Unless Covid-19 will reshape the trajectory of urbanization, and major cities will mostly shrink for the next several decades. That actually seems somewhat plausible). But writing off all the sidewalk labs ideas as gimmicky smartphone integrations is pr…

Condos are too expensive in general to fulfill the needs of most cities. In general construction of new condos is focused on the luxury kind of condos Google was undoubtedly looking at, which are absolutely not what cities need right now. We need affordable housing.

I'm not sure if either are you Canadian/Toronto residents, but Toronto has been developing a metric fuckton of condos over the last decade. In my neighbourhood alone (a 3x4 block area) there's been 15 30+ story condos built in that timeframe. We have no problems with condo development, imo.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#52

Post by 52-6F-62 » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #44

reportingsjr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two years is nothing when it comes with planning and development in the US, unfortunately. A little anecdote, here in Cincinnati I was peripherally involved with a local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city part to build new multi-use trails. It took 20 years for the park board to even listen, then once an agreement was reached it took another /year and a half/ to get the paperwork to the poin…

local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city This is why it took a long time. The city was handing over management over part of itself in perpetuity. That needs to be done with care and deliberation. Moreover, there are liability issues related to third parties making alterations to city lands that could result in ruinous liability to the city if citizens get injured on the altered lands and the…

Thankfully Waterfront Toronto has been doing those studies and has their own plan for the region! They want to convert a large part of the area into green lands and proper drainage of the Don River to prevent further flooding.

I'm not sure if SWL's plan would have worked in conjunction with that work or if they would have overridden it.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#53

Post by briffle » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #46

cactus2093 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... condo neighborhoods are exactly that medium density housing. Every city does need more condos in their existing neighborhoods if populations are able to grow. (Unless Covid-19 will reshape the trajectory of urbanization, and major cities will mostly shrink for the next several decades. That actually seems somewhat plausible). But writing off all the sidewalk labs ideas as gimmicky smartphone integrations is pr…

Condos are too expensive in general to fulfill the needs of most cities. In general construction of new condos is focused on the luxury kind of condos Google was undoubtedly looking at, which are absolutely not what cities need right now. We need affordable housing.

Building Luxury condos does create affordable housing. Where do you think those people move from? interesting thought from this link: If you destroy 10,000 luxury condo's in Toronto tomorrow, will your prices go down?

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/8/1/how-luxury-hous...

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#54

Post by cal5k » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

People are cheering, but as a broader statement this is a small sample of how difficult it is to do business in Canada.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#55

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

briffle wrote: post #53

sudosysgen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Condos are too expensive in general to fulfill the needs of most cities. In general construction of new condos is focused on the luxury kind of condos Google was undoubtedly looking at, which are absolutely not what cities need right now. We need affordable housing.

Building Luxury condos does create affordable housing. Where do you think those people move from? interesting thought from this link: If you destroy 10,000 luxury condo's in Toronto tomorrow, will your prices go down? https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/8/1/how-luxury-hous...

Of course, destroying luxury condos and not replacing them with anything will not help. But the housing market is more complicated that straightforward supply and demand, with a lot of second and third order effects, and in the end building incredible amounts of luxury condos has done nothing for rent prices and housing availability in Toronto, or in Montreal where I live.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#56

Post by Arelius » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

OrangeMango wrote: post #31

leoh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cynicism here boggles the mind. You can talk blue in the face about all the products they haven't killed that power the world and people will just shake their heads in dismay and walk away muttering about Google Reader.

Categorize Google's products into two buckets - "home grown" and "bought the company". Then it starts to make a lot more sense.

Hmm, I think I lack the insight to know what this means.

Knowing that YouTube and Android were acquisitions, suggests that acquisitions may have more lasting potential, but I don't know enough about gmail, docs, maps, etc to know if any of them were home grown.

And looking at the list of acquisitions don't really clarify anything, all of their successful products seem to have some amount of acquisitions involved, but it's unclear to me if they were all sourced from the company, or if they bought companies to bring in talent into an ongoing home grown environment.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#57

Post by supernova87a » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

Google doesn't need to invest in the gadgets and electronics in the walls that appear to make cities smarter.

That money would be better spent on enabling city governments, elected policymakers, and especially their constituents to be smarter and able to make better choices and designs about city planning, building permits, incentives, taxation, traffic, etc better.

The rest will follow. What we need is for people to understand how to choose better for themselves. Not a technology patch.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#58

Post by teen » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #55

briffle wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building Luxury condos does create affordable housing. Where do you think those people move from? interesting thought from this link: If you destroy 10,000 luxury condo's in Toronto tomorrow, will your prices go down? https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/8/1/how-luxury-hous...

Of course, destroying luxury condos and not replacing them with anything will not help. But the housing market is more complicated that straightforward supply and demand, with a lot of second and third order effects, and in the end building incredible amounts of luxury condos has done nothing for rent prices and housing availability in Toronto, or in Montreal where I live.

How is supply and demand not the major factor here?

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#59

Post by nick_ » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #45

nick_ wrote: post #39

Good. Toronto doesn't need condo neighbourhoods with gimmicky smart-phone integrations. It needs re-zoning of low density neighbourhoods to allow medium density to be built, thus more uniformly distributing the large and growing population.

But... condo neighborhoods are exactly that medium density housing. Every city does need more condos in their existing neighborhoods if populations are able to grow. (Unless Covid-19 will reshape the trajectory of urbanization, and major cities will mostly shrink for the next several decades. That actually seems somewhat plausible). But writing off all the sidewalk labs ideas as gimmicky smartphone integrations is pr…

I understand "high density" to mean condo neighbourhoods. I understand medium density to mean mid-rise, walk-ups, or town houses.

The situation in Toronto is (and has been for some time) a stark contrast between low-density neighbourhoods of houses & small duplexes/triplexes, and high-density pockets of high-rise condos. This is bad for all the usual reasons of neighbourhood segregation.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#60

Post by xozorion » Thu, May 07, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

The idea of “smart cities” seems great, and a lot of prominent people in tech/VC seem to be on board.

Yet at the same time, I just don’t see a realistic way to make this happen (zoning, NIMBYism) unless we’re talking about desolate places that still have cheap real estate, but where nobody wants to live anyways e.g. Montana and the Dakotas.