Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto • Hacker News Board

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#21

Post by leoh » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

owenwil wrote: post #8

I know the average Torontonian wasn't into this, but I live nearby and was really excited about what it could have been, even though it was fraught with missteps. This area is a concrete wasteland–just car-parks and abandoned lots–that's now going to be portioned off to more giant, glass condo buildings, and while Sidewalk's proposal had problems, it was focused on building something very different, community-oriente…

You can still advocate for such urban redevelopment and community planning without Big Tech behind it.

Sure, but it would have been really interesting to see what Sidewalk could have done here, especially given that it was a blighted area.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#22

Post by leoh » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

Wacko_dacko wrote: post #4

This is great news. As a Torontonian I found their plan to be nothing more than a money grab on public space and the public in general. They also massively overreached in all their applications to the city.

> I found their plan to be nothing more than a money grab on public space and the public in general

You're going to get a big real estate developer doing it instead.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#23

Post by Ididntdothis » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

pupppet wrote: post #17

TO dodged a bullet. It's Google's nature to lose interest and abandon their products. You think it's bad with software, imagine them building part of your city.

Yeah. Tech companies almost by definition have (and should have) a very short attention span. I wouldn’t trust them with building anything that impacts people’s lives for decades and longer. It’s pretty much guaranteed that they will “pivot” away and jump on something shinier soon.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#24

Post by leoh » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

pupppet wrote: post #17

TO dodged a bullet. It's Google's nature to lose interest and abandon their products. You think it's bad with software, imagine them building part of your city.

The cynicism here boggles the mind. You can talk blue in the face about all the products they haven't killed that power the world and people will just shake their heads in dismay and walk away muttering about Google Reader.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#25

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

bbeekley wrote: post #20

toomuchtodo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still advocate for such urban redevelopment and community planning without Big Tech behind it.

Local HOAs and similar have loud voices against these kind of projects. It might take another big voice (like Sidewalk Labs) to counter. I've tried calling my local reps to support walkable community projects and have been told, nearly verbatim, that if the HOA doesn't like it, they won't be voting for it. Then when big tech offices started moving in, the redevelopment projects finally started too.

[deleted]

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#26

Post by AIME15 » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

The scope-limiting to 12 acres announced on October 31 was perceived as a win for the regulators, giving them more control over the project over time. At that point the project timeline became untenable for SWL's plans but couldn't back out due to PR concerns for Alphabet. The pandemic is a convenient excuse for the company to abandon the Quayside project.

For the last three years SWL has bent over backwards to be transparent about its plans and address community concerns. Plans have repeatedly been scaled down to the point where it makes absolutely no financial sense to move forward.

The calculation to bet the company on Toronto was made before this recent backlash against Big Tech. I suspect it would have been made differently had the company started a year later.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#27

Post by ericzawo » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

AIME15 wrote: post #26

The scope-limiting to 12 acres announced on October 31 was perceived as a win for the regulators, giving them more control over the project over time. At that point the project timeline became untenable for SWL's plans but couldn't back out due to PR concerns for Alphabet. The pandemic is a convenient excuse for the company to abandon the Quayside project. For the last three years SWL has bent over backwards to be tr…

Bent over backwards? I don't think we were attending the same public hearings about Sidewalk Labs. I went to three of them, and do not - at all - share that view. In fact, they deliberately obfuscated many key points around their continued goal-posting moving of public-private terms, which has been well documented[1].

https://medium.com/@biancawylie/debrief-on-sidewalk-toronto-...

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#28

Post by Tiktaalik » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

I followed the Google Sidewalk Labs/Toronto development for a while from a place of confusion more than anything else. Never really figured out what problem Sidewalk Labs was trying to solve or how technology was going to make a positive impact on peoples' urban lives.

The dominant problems that cities face are really the ancient ones of class conflict, racism and land use, with the core issue being that of the rich making life worse for the poor through politics and exclusionary zoning.

You could make cities dramatically better with only 19th century levels of technology (ie. the bicycle). Of course you'd need to have a political culture willing to share land and remove it from exclusive car use. Apparently a tall order.

The core things holding NA cities back are entirely political in nature.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#29

Post by ericzawo » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

What a colossal waste of time and money that confirms the obvious to anyone who actually lives in the city — they never really were about improving the downtown core neighbourhood of Quayside, which is ripe for development, and instead wanted to use public land and money for R&D. Good riddance and I hope people who are serious about aiding the public take note in the missteps Sidewalk made time and again, to fail to win the trust of the very city they were trying to become a community member of.

Re: Google ends plans for smart city in Toronto

#30

Post by reportingsjr » Thu, May 07, 2020, 4:48 PM UTC

donpdonp wrote: post #6

$50M and two years later - where are the conclusions? The results? A blog post of what happened? Two years seems like enough time to say we tried some amazing things and this is how it did or did not work.

Two years is nothing when it comes with planning and development in the US, unfortunately.

A little anecdote, here in Cincinnati I was peripherally involved with a local nonprofit taking over management of an abandoned bit of city part to build new multi-use trails. It took 20 years for the park board to even listen, then once an agreement was reached it took another /year and a half/ to get the paperwork to the point where they would officially sign it. Just for a group to build trails, with no money needed from the city, no permits, etc.

Projects like what sidewalk labs was trying to accomplish frequently take 5-10 years+ to get anywhere. Planning in the US is absolute garbage. It is a big part of the reason SF and other large US cities are so expensive. Luckily there are some groups like YIMBY making headway here.