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IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

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Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#31

"It does correlate to very negative performance (as it was initially designed to detect learning special needs)" It did a crap job detecting learning special needs with my son. Because he has a weird intelligence profile of being above 98% on some tasks and below 10% on other tasks, the IQ test simply wouldn't score him, and put him in the "he's not taking the test correctly" category. Yeah, not at all useful, thanks…

Exactly, the standard IQ tests measure a very narrow ability in abstract reasoning.

This is certainly something we call 'smart', but I don't think it's at all predictive of success, except perhaps in academia.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#32
post #3

I can't even bring myself to read this. After perusing and seeing it gets so emotional (bringing up eugenics, morality, etc), I have a hard time believing it's going to be objective. "There is no significant statistical association between IQ and hard measures such as wealth." So... you're saying that people with an IQ of 60 are equally wealthy as those with an IQ of 110? I understand getting frustrated about misappl…

IQ is one of the few actually, and maybe THE most robust and measurable dimension in humans that psychology has come up with.

Some people are smarter than others and they are expected to rise higher in a (necessarily imperfectly) meritocratic system. The big question is whether the bottom end should starve. I think they should not starve and should have certain minimal living standards met, but they are going to be lower than the top end. You risk dividing the population trying to convince the smart to settle for less than they can get. They will simply band together and manipulate the system until they achieve it.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#33

This article is written so polemically it's hard to take it seriously. Also Taleb seems to be constructing so many straw men I wouldn't even know where to start. IQ isn't a swindle, it's a very real thing. However, it is only one factor among many in determining most practical real-world outcomes, and it is well-known to be affected by environmental variables at population levels. But IQ isn't a "fraud" or "immoral".…

He has to make such moral claims because it is in keeping with his world view that individuals are replaceable cogs. If it is shown that modernity requires advanced problem solving skills and that IQ is a reasonable, but not perfect measure of such skills, then the idea that you can take a below average person and use them in these advanced spaces is destroyed. If he loses that, he loses many of the policies being pu…

Are you saying that certain races are genetically inferior? Because that really seems like what you are saying. Which sort of proves his point. The people that loudly disagree with him are racists.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#34
post #3

I can't even bring myself to read this. After perusing and seeing it gets so emotional (bringing up eugenics, morality, etc), I have a hard time believing it's going to be objective. "There is no significant statistical association between IQ and hard measures such as wealth." So... you're saying that people with an IQ of 60 are equally wealthy as those with an IQ of 110? I understand getting frustrated about misappl…

Well I'd say bringing up hard problems like morality and eugenics is part of being objective. It's not like they could be ignored.

I agree with this statement; it would be an omission to discuss the misapplication of IQ tests and leave out the fact that they have been misapplied in a way that has given ammunition to eugenicists and the "field" of so-called "scientific racism."

However, the polemic style of writing the author uses does make not only hard to read, but hard to take seriously, even though I ultimately agree with what is said.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#35

A fine example of an expert in one field believing he is an expert in every field. In reading the section describing psychometricians, he clearly is not actually reading what they publish.

Taleb is an expert in statistics. This is an analysis of the statistics of a metric and the statistical methodology of the field it is part of.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#36
post #19
post #3

I can't even bring myself to read this. After perusing and seeing it gets so emotional (bringing up eugenics, morality, etc), I have a hard time believing it's going to be objective. "There is no significant statistical association between IQ and hard measures such as wealth." So... you're saying that people with an IQ of 60 are equally wealthy as those with an IQ of 110? I understand getting frustrated about misappl…

The observation is that above roughly IQ 70 the test is not even correlated with SAT scores. And below 70 one does not need a test to see that.

Is there really any doubt that 80 IQ people are represented less than 110 IQ people in industries like medicine, law, or engineering?

If there's really no correlation in SAT scores, I wager that says more about that test than it does about IQ.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has to make such moral claims because it is in keeping with his world view that individuals are replaceable cogs. If it is shown that modernity requires advanced problem solving skills and that IQ is a reasonable, but not perfect measure of such skills, then the idea that you can take a below average person and use them in these advanced spaces is destroyed. If he loses that, he loses many of the policies being pu…

Are you saying that certain races are genetically inferior? Because that really seems like what you are saying. Which sort of proves his point. The people that loudly disagree with him are racists.

You do know how bell curves work, right? Whites are included in that.

The trouble with many policies that ignore genetic differences in intelligence is that it ignores science. If you want a modern advanced society, you’ll have to look to your genetics.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IQ is probably more well studied than any other phenomenon in the social sciences or psychology. Also IQ is not science, it is something that is studied scientifically.

https://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1...

That is an article about eugenics. No one is arguing for eugenics. Eugenics was awful, but just because something was used as a tool for evil does not make it untrue.

If I light someone on fire with gasoline this makes it no less useful for fueling a car.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#39
post #3

I can't even bring myself to read this. After perusing and seeing it gets so emotional (bringing up eugenics, morality, etc), I have a hard time believing it's going to be objective. "There is no significant statistical association between IQ and hard measures such as wealth." So... you're saying that people with an IQ of 60 are equally wealthy as those with an IQ of 110? I understand getting frustrated about misappl…

IQ seems to be more predictive at the low end than the high end. Someone with an IQ of 60 is handicapped. Someone with an IQ of 100 is normal. Above 100 the differences start to vanish into noise due to loads of other confounding factors and random chance.

I have taken several tests in my life. They have all shown above average but the differences have varied wildly from 120 all the way up to 160 or something. That is a crazy variance and really makes me feel like the high numbers are hand wavey BS.

The same is true of lots of other biological metrics. Very high cholesterol can indicate a problem. From the normal range down it's not predictive of much unless it is absurdly low. Low IQ probably indicates a neurological problem. Normal and above is... normal.

The "IQ cult" is bullshit. It seems like compensatory narcissism to me, like people who are fairly intelligent trying to clutch IQ because they are not in fact super successful. They are trying to rationalize the fact that high IQ does not automatically translate to better outcomes and many other factors dominate once your IQ hits the normal range.

The IQ cult is also deeply anti-intellectual. It neglects the value of ideas entirely. Who would you bet on? A person with a normal 100 IQ with sane rational beliefs and habits of thought or a person with a really high score whose mind is full of loony garbage? Having a big engine in the car doesn't mean anything if the driver is bad. Some of the nuttiest people I have ever met would undoubtedly get a high IQ score.

You can see a good A/B experiment on IQ vs ideas by searching for photos of North and South Korea from space. There is basically no genetic difference at all there. The difference is 100% ideas.

My personal observation is that in the realm of neurological factors motivation and focus are more important in terms of outcome than IQ beyond the normal range. I would definitely be tempted to exchange some IQ points for the dopamine system that super successful people seem to have.

Re: IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle (2019)

#40

This article is written so polemically it's hard to take it seriously. Also Taleb seems to be constructing so many straw men I wouldn't even know where to start. IQ isn't a swindle, it's a very real thing. However, it is only one factor among many in determining most practical real-world outcomes, and it is well-known to be affected by environmental variables at population levels. But IQ isn't a "fraud" or "immoral".…

He has to make such moral claims because it is in keeping with his world view that individuals are replaceable cogs. If it is shown that modernity requires advanced problem solving skills and that IQ is a reasonable, but not perfect measure of such skills, then the idea that you can take a below average person and use them in these advanced spaces is destroyed. If he loses that, he loses many of the policies being pu…

> If he loses that, he loses many of the policies being pushed from an immigration and population control perspective.

I don't know anything about Taleb's personal politics. Care to give any specific examples of these policies?

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