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Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

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Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#41
post #8

Bill Gates did this stuff dealing with IBM et al. If you CAN do X, and the only thing stopping you from getting the deal is the other side's perception of you, then influencing their perception (i.e. lying) can save the deal, save your company, and solve their problem -- all at the same time. It can OFTEN be in BOTH your AND your client's best interest to lie. And ask for forgiveness later after they are happy with y…

> Bill Gates did this stuff dealing with IBM et al.

Please cite. From what I understand, he sold them software that he would deliver at a later date, before it had been written. It was closer to contract work than deliberate deception. That's not the same thing as lying about factual, verifiable, information.

Personally, I would never associate in business with anyone prone to such factual hyperbole...

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#42
One way of splitting the people of the world is into people that would lie about business, and people that wouldn't. You don't ever want to work for a CEO that will, because he'll lie to you too. Avoiding working with people that lie about business is a good heuristic to keeping to what you do best - working.

If you think that you might have legal trouble for not telling people about this, then talk to a lawyer. Otherwise, find another job and don't look back. If you hear anyone doing business with this guy again and you care about them, warn them about what you overheard and why you left - personally, I would really appreciate such advice. Otherwise, don't mention it unless someone asks.

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#43

Software is a funny business. I've known guys to run full-page ads for software that didn't even exist yet. The theory goes -- if the orders come in, we'll build it. Some people are naturally prone to exaggeration. Immaturity comes in to this as well -- once you've been around the block a few times you realize that fake posturing is easy for customers to spot. If it's not investment related, it's not criminal. I'd ha…

I've known guys to run full-page ads for software that didn't even exist yet.

That seems significantly more justifiable than flat-out lying about the company and its customers.

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#45
post #4

well its understandable why the guy is doing this...gotta survive + almost everyone is doing this. But if you feel uncomfortable about it, just go looking for a new job.

gotta survive

You mean the company? Surely there are companies which could survive without lying to customers/investors? The ones that can't are meant to go out of business, and that's OK. Companies aren't babies, it's OK for them to "die". Going out of business is natural if the market/business model is wrong, which happens often, by nobody's fault. It's simply due to the uncertainty of things, which comes with the complexity of our world.

There is no ethical dilemma in Social Darwinism when applied to companies as the "living beings". A CEO who holds his personal honesty as less important than the survival of a company is very misguided.

almost everyone is doing this

Really? I don't have the experience to contradict, but I really hope not...

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#46
post #36
post #9

There is a fine line between fraud and salesmanship... This is actually one of the things that lawyers learn at law school... What I would do is not listen to that. They have their job (selling the software) and you have yours. If they commit a fraud, you will not go to jail for it. Do you hear the car dealership mechanic tell the customers the cars was NOT really driven by an old lady to church every Saturday? Now,…

Ignoring it is wrong. You have a responsibility to do something, even it it's just talking to your boss.

You have a responsibility to do something...

I don't think so... a responsibility to whom?

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#47
post #39
post #35

I would quietly & politely leave, possibly after a candid, thoughtful conversation with the founder in question. Or, I would be quiet and put up with it. Five years ago, at 20 years old, I was offered an amazing opportunity -- running leadership conferences across Canada, and leading teams of youth around the world to promote business/development. I'd been running projects with the organization for a couple of years…

From the way you explain it, you seem like a nice guy, giving nice guy advice. It's a bit ironic, however, that you were supposed to be running leadership conferences - shouldn't a "good leader" rally people against perceived injustice? Surely, it would be hard to argue that criminal mismanagement is just. Could there have been some way you could have "created your own future" without letting criminal actions stand?

I don't think "good leadership" is about fighting a battle you can't win. Energy is best spent on battles that you have a good shot at, in areas you're good at. Not setting yourself up to fail.

In this case, I didn't know I couldn't win, so I fought a losing battle and no good came of it.

On-the-ground I created an ambitious assessment program called "Assess the Past, Inspire the Future" which for the first time, connected participants from the past & present of the future and had them submit evaluations of their experiences... and "from-above", I was ultimately asked to give a report to the cabinet minister in charge of this thing. You can't go higher up than him without reaching the prime minister, and I could hardly have asked for better results and response for my survey. I believe I had the personal support every single active participant above the age of 20 (the younger ones were mainly oblivious), though none of them knew as much as I did about how deep the problems actually went. And my mentors would have supported me to run the damn thing if we'd have been able to get some change in the air.

Unfortunately, hearing the truth didn't help the organization -- they reacted by selecting young, naive people to participate in their programs, shying away from people who were old or mature enough to realize what was going on. Neither did it have the intended impact on those with the power to change things -- no politician, including the cabinet minister, would touch this with a 10 foot pole, because it would be way too risky. Much easier to let it continue as-is, and deny knowledge if anything nasty ever bubbled to the surface in the future.

In the end, the people who had the real power to make things right failed to act, so the only choices I had were to leak the story to the press, which likely would have destroyed the program in an instant, or walk away quietly. And since I believed (and still do) that our country is better off with the program than without, even when taking into account its imperfections, I took my cue and left the scene.

The whole ordeal took way more out of me than I expected. I don't even like the way I sound when describing it here, because it comes across as so negative and pessimistic! There are way better things I should be spending my time thinking about and acting on -- now, just as then.

To accept other people, that I can't change them, that I am always going to wake up and find new forms of nastiness. Then, to move on and think about better things. That's what I believe in these days.

My mistakes were misjudging my chances of making a difference, and misjudging the value of my own time. Life is short -- pick your battles accordingly. Those people are going to be the same tomorrow as they were yesterday. I can either try to fight that reality or I can find something productive to do.

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#48
post #47
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the way you explain it, you seem like a nice guy, giving nice guy advice. It's a bit ironic, however, that you were supposed to be running leadership conferences - shouldn't a "good leader" rally people against perceived injustice? Surely, it would be hard to argue that criminal mismanagement is just. Could there have been some way you could have "created your own future" without letting criminal actions stand?

I don't think "good leadership" is about fighting a battle you can't win. Energy is best spent on battles that you have a good shot at, in areas you're good at. Not setting yourself up to fail. In this case, I didn't know I couldn't win, so I fought a losing battle and no good came of it. On-the-ground I created an ambitious assessment program called "Assess the Past, Inspire the Future" which for the first time, con…

Thanks for the thorough explanation. That does put quite a different light on it, indeed. My apologies for jumping to conclusions in my first response.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have had the balls to raise as much dust as you did, but ideally, why didn't you warn the leaders of the organization that unless the issues were resolved internally, you'd be providing evidence of misconduct to the media at such-and-such a date, giving them time to prepare whatever PR kung-fu organizations do during scandals?

To me it just seems really immoral to walk away when taxpayer money is involved...

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#49
post #41
post #8

Bill Gates did this stuff dealing with IBM et al. If you CAN do X, and the only thing stopping you from getting the deal is the other side's perception of you, then influencing their perception (i.e. lying) can save the deal, save your company, and solve their problem -- all at the same time. It can OFTEN be in BOTH your AND your client's best interest to lie. And ask for forgiveness later after they are happy with y…

> Bill Gates did this stuff dealing with IBM et al. Please cite. From what I understand, he sold them software that he would deliver at a later date, before it had been written. It was closer to contract work than deliberate deception. That's not the same thing as lying about factual, verifiable, information. Personally, I would never associate in business with anyone prone to such factual hyperbole...

Dude, it is a well-known fact. At the time the dealing was made, Bill Gates didn't have the software. Then he immediately bought the rights of QDOS, which he then recast as MS-DOS and sold it to IBM.

Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud

#50
post #48
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "good leadership" is about fighting a battle you can't win. Energy is best spent on battles that you have a good shot at, in areas you're good at. Not setting yourself up to fail. In this case, I didn't know I couldn't win, so I fought a losing battle and no good came of it. On-the-ground I created an ambitious assessment program called "Assess the Past, Inspire the Future" which for the first time, con…

Thanks for the thorough explanation. That does put quite a different light on it, indeed. My apologies for jumping to conclusions in my first response. Personally, I probably wouldn't have had the balls to raise as much dust as you did, but ideally, why didn't you warn the leaders of the organization that unless the issues were resolved internally, you'd be providing evidence of misconduct to the media at such-and-su…

I see your point, but it could be seen as equally immoral (if not more so) for me to cause the destruction that would have resulted. Especially since it would have hurt other people more than it hurt the perpetrators.

Threatening them with a media leak was one option. But it didn't seem to be a very good one, not to me or any of my mentors. The only way for an actual net-positive result here was for the management to be swiftly but quietly replaced by those with the power to do so. We went as far as we could to push for that.

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