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Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

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Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#551

Post by wolco »

jklein11 wrote: post #513
verst wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why you are being downvoted. It seems that much of HN has very little knowledge of (and interest in) business operations and employment law in other countries. I see your question as genuinely inquiring about this stark difference from what is common in Europe and other countries.

I didn't downvote the OP but I am picking up a tone of indignation that I don't quite understand. I find this pretty interesting. Here is my take on the situation: Let's say I own a widget factory and you are highly skilled at turning paper clips into widgets. We agree on a price for your time and I hire you to start making widgets. Things are going gangbusters, you produce a ton of widgets and I pay you for the time…

Under the rules you live in you are not.

Why is it a good idea?

Employees less likely to leave without notice.

Employees stay longer because the safety net grows.

Less likely to speak poorly about you after leaving

More secure in their job. More emotional invested.

What are your reasons for not? Even if google stops selling at home they will keep the server alive for a grace period.

I had a friend who ran a bitcoin market. When the market shutdown he was responsible for customer records for 7 years and had to pay a company to secure access in case of requests.

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#552

Post by [deleted] »

sulam wrote: post #479
supernova87a wrote: post #249

If Airbnb is willing to pay 14 weeks (3.25 months) of severance, they must believe this is going to go on significantly longer than that. Or they're using this as an opportunity to cut underperformers at the same time. Because if they believed things would start to recover by fall, wouldn't you just pay the people as normal and make a judgement call around then? You're spending the payroll money either way -- 14 week…

All indications are that we are going to experience a not-so-great depression. Not a recession, an honest-to-goodness depression. 2020 will be down YoY in terms economic output probably across the world, and it wouldn't surprise me if that's not only true for Q2-Q4, but if it also lingers into Q1. My guess is that we will feel like things are growing again this time next year. Some economists are hoping for a better…

[deleted]

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#553

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

verst wrote: post #459
xenospn wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really strange to me that companies in the US can just determine how much severance they're "willing" to pay. Why is it even up to them?

I am not sure why you are being downvoted. It seems that much of HN has very little knowledge of (and interest in) business operations and employment law in other countries. I see your question as genuinely inquiring about this stark difference from what is common in Europe and other countries.

In many countries, there is no concept of 'at will employment'. It is not surprising that HNers from such countries would be incredulous.

Employment law in Europe, for example, frequently requires the severance terms to be determined at the time the employee is signed up. The employment agreement is a contract, and will be signed by all positions in the firm. In many cases, the severance terms are based on law.

Among other differences, for example, a German President is personally liable for the financial obligations of their company. If the company goes bankrupt, so does he.

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#554

Post by jlbnjmn »

beagle3 wrote: post #430
beagle3 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is generous by US standards, but it's just nice for many other western countries, where the standard is a few months of salary, or e.g. one month salary for each year worked (that is, if you had worked for the company for 5 years, you get at least 5 months salary on termination -- Israel mandates that one by law, for example, and NOT paying it is considered a criminal violation performed by the employer)

Wow. This is my comment most downvoted in history, and I would really appreciate an explanation why from someone who understands why (no hard feelings, I don't care about internet/brownie points, but the reason I'm here on HN is to learn and downvotes only help me figure out that someone thinks I'm wrong, not why). If you think this is factually wrong, please point out why. If you think it's stupid (even though it is…

In Germany, if an employee gets laid off after 2 years, they would get 50% monthly salary times number of years worked, so 1 months pay.

That means the Airbnb severance package is equivalent to a 6+ year employee, for every employee getting laid off.

That's generous by German standards, isn't it?

Then when you consider the median income for a software engineer in Germany is $54k, whereas in the USA it's $92k, and at Airbnb it's $200k+, that means that an engineer being laid off from Airbnb could be receiving the median annual income of a software engineer in Germany as severance, not including stock.

That, to me, is generous.

https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/termination-employment-co...

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#555

Post by wolco »

2019-nCoV wrote: post #520
zxcmx wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think European dev market is a lot more complex than that; if you work in Zurich or London, do contracting, work for a major bank etc then the market is way different for you than if you do (say) PHP as an employee of a non-software company in Berlin. The baseline is decently middle class with a solid safety net but there's a lot more room at the top than you're making out IMHO. As always, to make cash as a "workin…

Zurich and London top out at $100k, any more and we're talking managerial responsibilities. Compared to SF or SEA they are only paying ~25% market rate. The safety net argument has no legs. Australia and Canada both have social benefits that far exceed the majority of EU nations, yet pre-pandemic there was no shortage of $150k+ dev roles.

Good luck finding a dev job malig 150k+ in Canadian dollars.

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#556

Post by gonehome »

ridv wrote: post #517
gonehome wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily get taxable income from RSUs [edit: when they're granted] if they're structured in a 'Facebook Style' RSU which has an expiration if the company does not IPO within a certain time frame. As long as there's a real risk of loss you can avoid the taxable income and private companies with high valuations will do this to help employees avoid the bad tax situation on an illiquid asset (without need to…

This is one thing I've struggled to understand. Scenario A: RSUs have an expiration date. RSUs you own expire before the company hits a liquidity event. Scenario B: RSUs do not have an expiration date but the company goes bankrupt/dissolves and never hits a liquidity event. Is one of these scenarios taxable and the other one not? One of my biggest fears about joining a startup (pre covid) was scenario A happening.

This is my current possibly incorrect understanding:

Scenario A there’s no tax, but the company is failing to hold up their end of the bargain and this would probably lead to everyone quitting or some sort of RSU regrant.

Scenario B I think you’re taxed when they vest. If there’s no IPO then you don’t get any money.

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#557

Post by Naracion »

louisswiss wrote: post #539
cecilpl2 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You own a factory. Your employees don't. There's a power imbalance in the employment relationship. Most people (who don't own things like factories) need a regular, predictable, stable income to survive, and finding new employment is not always easy. Therefore, people in most developed countries have agreed that by taking on an employee, it is contingent on the employer to provide some guarantee of stability. This is…

> even the workers seem to value the rights of the employers far above the rights of the employees. I'm not sure why this is. To paraphrase a famous quote, in the USA the workers don't see themselves as workers, but as temporarily down-on-their-luck owners.

Out of curiosity, what is the quote and whom is it by? (not trying to challenge you, just interested)

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#558

Post by greenyoda »

tempsy wrote: post #106
nsxwolf wrote: post #48

My initial reaction is "wow, nice severance package!" My secondary reaction is they must think things are going to be very bad for a very long time for this kind of payout to make sense financially.

Depending on the role not everyone is going to have an easy time finding another job. Technical roles sure but areas like marketing and recruiting no.

> Technical roles sure...

I'm not so sure. Recent news has been that lots of startups are laying people off and Google has slashed budgets and frozen (or at least scaled back) hiring across the company.[1]

Companies like Google and Facebook that rely on ads for most of their revenue aren't going to be doing so well when a lot of the businesses that buy their ads are closed down.

Companies like Apple that sell premium-priced goods are also not likely to do well in a recession - people who have lost their jobs or are afraid of losing their jobs won't be running out to buy a new iPhone.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/google-to-cut-marketing-budg...

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#559

Post by dbaggerman »

closeparen wrote: post #476
dbaggerman wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia it's not negotiable. Our employment laws dictate what severance payment is required if a company is letting people go to reduce costs. Those laws don't apply if the employee leaves of their own accord, or if they are fired for other reasons.

Is that in addition to or instead of unemployment insurance? That’s probably the most similar construct in the US.

I suppose it would be "instead of". Unemployment insurance isn't really a thing here.

Re: Citing revenue declines, Airbnb cuts 25% of workforce

#560

Post by luckydata »

c3534l wrote: post #391
atomic77 wrote: post #377

While I don't want to seem like I'm wishing unemployment or hardship on anyone, the implosion of Airbnb is already causing a rent price correction that was sorely needed in many cities that have become severely unaffordable. Wired published an article about this effect in London [1] and I've seen price drops as much as $500 for condos in the downtown core of Toronto on Zillow already. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/…

It's possible that while AirBnB increased demand for housing, the market could have responded by building and allocating more real estate to housing, resulting in an equilibrium. So it is at least plausible to me that an implosion of AirBnB might be good for renters in the short term as there is an over-allocation of housing, but that without AirBnB, market rates will increase to about where they were before as suppl…

what about https://hbr.org/2019/04/research-when-airbnb-listings-in-a-c...
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