A look at modern PHP • Hacker News Board

Re: A look at modern PHP

#461

Post by zelphirkalt » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

alphadevx wrote: post #201

watermelon0 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where to begin? - No proper connection pooling with circuit breakers. - No proper multithreading (that works in web environment) or parallelism in general. - Almost everything blocks (even `new PDO('mysql:...')` can block for whatever the execution time limit is, if there is an issue with connection or MySQL server). - Most libraries are implemented in C instead of in PHP, whereas with other languages people try to a…

Where to begin indeed! > - No proper connection pooling with circuit breakers. PHP has had a "shared nothing" architecture since the very beginning, that includes DB connections. It helps it to scale (think micro-services being stateless in a modern context): nothing is shared between requests, again including connections, by design. > - No proper multithreading (that works in web environment) or parallelism in gener…

> Well, it depends on your code of course, but pretty hard to proceed with some code that works with a DB when the connection can't be established, so proceed with what exactly other than error handling? Seems like a strange example. And as mentioned above, no (excluding optional pThreads) support for asynchronous threads in the language, so...?

What to proceed with? Well, any other code of course! Does all code in a current task depend on writing something to a database or reading from it? What if you need to get data from multiple sources? It would be stupid to wait for every single connection to be made sequentially, instead of proceeding with the next one.

This is just one example. This is actually what Node is often lauded for, making a lot of use of single cores, due to putting one "task" at rest and asynchronously proceeding with the next, not blocking.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#462

Post by wnevets » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

fredsted wrote: post #145

I wonder if most developers that trash on PHP for trivial issues like seen in this thread haven't been using it for many years, or had a bad experience (e.g. maintaining a legacy app). Some developers live in a kind of technical vacuum where, I guess they assume, the technical features of their programming language are what makes the difference in the value of the business they're building. In reality, the difference…

>I wonder if most developers that trash on PHP for trivial issues like seen in this thread haven't been using it for many years, or had a bad experience (e.g. maintaining a legacy app).

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them don't even have that experience. I've found a lot of people just parrot whatever someone else wrote or said without much thought. The tribalism within the development community is approaching what you'll find with in gaming, sports and even politics.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#463

Post by steerpike » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

toohotatopic wrote: post #460

s1k3s wrote: post #112

The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. Here are some facts: - Symfony was the backend framework with the most contributors in 2019 [1] (yes, out of any backend framework written in any language) - PHP has more active contributors than it ever had [2] - Laravel is one of the most used frameworks in the world…

>The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. What if the assumed quality is an illusion and every discussion is actually as misinformed as this one, you just lack the knowledge to recognize it? Which doesn't have to be a bad thing since the signal to noise ratio on hn can still be better than somewhere else. (The…

It's called Gellman amnesia but it's usually attributed to newspapers

Re: A look at modern PHP

#464

Post by throwawaymsft » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

toohotatopic wrote: post #460

s1k3s wrote: post #112

The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. Here are some facts: - Symfony was the backend framework with the most contributors in 2019 [1] (yes, out of any backend framework written in any language) - PHP has more active contributors than it ever had [2] - Laravel is one of the most used frameworks in the world…

>The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. What if the assumed quality is an illusion and every discussion is actually as misinformed as this one, you just lack the knowledge to recognize it? Which doesn't have to be a bad thing since the signal to noise ratio on hn can still be better than somewhere else. (The…

“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”

– Michael Crichton (1942-2008)

Re: A look at modern PHP

#465

Post by hpoe » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

toohotatopic wrote: post #460

s1k3s wrote: post #112

The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. Here are some facts: - Symfony was the backend framework with the most contributors in 2019 [1] (yes, out of any backend framework written in any language) - PHP has more active contributors than it ever had [2] - Laravel is one of the most used frameworks in the world…

>The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. What if the assumed quality is an illusion and every discussion is actually as misinformed as this one, you just lack the knowledge to recognize it? Which doesn't have to be a bad thing since the signal to noise ratio on hn can still be better than somewhere else. (The…

Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect. Is the word you are looking for.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#466

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:06 PM UTC

riteshpatel wrote: post #222

jerng wrote: post #46

Meanwhile JavaScript/ECMAScript's syntax creep is turning it into PHP.

Noticed this recently when doing an ES6 course. So many additions look similar to modern PHP!

If it's modern PHP specifically, are you saying that both languages are adding a bunch of the same things? That doesn't really sound like one language turning into the other.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#467

Post by goatlover » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #409

goatlover wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the parent comments are assuming that all language criticism boils down to tribalism/elitism and not problems with the language itself, as if all PLs are the same, and the choice to use them is arbitrary.

I mean the choice isn't literally arbitrary but it matters a lot less than the ecosystem and you can't really make a wrong choice as .NET, JS, PHP, Java, Ruby, Python, Go, $ReasonablyPopularLang are all plenty productive.

Sure, but there are legitimate criticisms around types, complexity, security, maintainability, scalability and performance where the language choice can matter. Certainly when the project gets large.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#468

Post by pvtmert » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:07 PM UTC

Svip wrote: post #14

Even with PHP7, PHP still feels like it is playing catch up. There is nothing new or revolutionary in PHP7, just adopting features present in other major languages. Adopting as other newer languages like Go and Rust seems to be moving beyond those features. A catch up into a world that's on its way out, if one will feel so blunt. PHP's raison d'être remains its ease of getting an instance running on a webserver. But…

Same as Java, ~adding~ backporting boilerplate from other JVM stuff.

Re: A look at modern PHP

#469

Post by pinopinopino » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:08 PM UTC

fredsted wrote: post #145

I wonder if most developers that trash on PHP for trivial issues like seen in this thread haven't been using it for many years, or had a bad experience (e.g. maintaining a legacy app). Some developers live in a kind of technical vacuum where, I guess they assume, the technical features of their programming language are what makes the difference in the value of the business they're building. In reality, the difference…

>I wonder if most developers that trash on PHP for trivial issues like seen in this thread haven't been using it for many years, or had a bad experience (e.g. maintaining a legacy app).

Think this is true. I am one of those php haters, although I wouldn't trash it. I worked with 4 and 5 and the transition between the two, so it is a while ago. I am not fondly remembering that time and have moved to other branches than web development to evade it.

That being said, if I would go back to web development, I would have a look at it. Why not?

Re: A look at modern PHP

#470

Post by dzonga » Tue, May 05, 2020, 7:12 PM UTC

s1k3s wrote: post #112

The amount of misinformation, false claims and unsupported statements in this thread is mindblowing for the quality that I've been used to see on HN. Here are some facts: - Symfony was the backend framework with the most contributors in 2019 [1] (yes, out of any backend framework written in any language) - PHP has more active contributors than it ever had [2] - Laravel is one of the most used frameworks in the world…

people living in the sv | start-up bubble. folks tend to forget there's dozens of websites in mainstreet that run on php. they also think everyone out there using microservices etc. nah, people just kicking dozens of laravel monoliths every part of the world. getting shit done. & getting paid. I don't use php, but I will admit the world runs on PHP, not Go, Node.js or any of the hipster shit.