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Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

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Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#531

Post by mbubb »

dkural wrote: post #225
xiaolingxiao wrote: post #39

I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonpr…

For what is worth, "there's the product you produce to trade time for money, and then there's you" is precisely what alienation from labor feels like, and you're advocating that one must just accept it. People have a deep need to relate as full human beings to their work. Trying to be content with finding self-worth only outside of work doesn't solve burnout. Work is a big chunk of our time and energy. Humans need to…

really well put. "People have a deep need to relate as full human beings to their work." And those relationships can be very important - even though they might not outlast the time working together.

I think though that "meaningful work" is different from deeper meaning in life. Confusing the two causes suffering. I have worked at an adtech company with really good people. I helped start a nonprofit publication in Brooklyn full of college friends, artists and academics- which ended up being the sleaziest group of backstabbing grubs imaginable.

I have a manager right now whom I respect. He (CTO) gives good project guidance and makes clear decisions based on rational business reasons... I like him but have no illusions that he would fire me in a second if it were in the interests of the company. Keeping this in the back of my mind helps me modulate my response when I am frustrated or really almost any emotion to the excess.

Its possible to do very meaningful work without being friends. You can even be friendly and go out and drink together from time to time ... but always remember what you are there for.

You can find meaningful experiences out of work. They can even be "worklike". I am an EMT on weekends and I end up thinking about it during the week. The relationships at the corps are important but in the back of my mind I can understand that this activity is not exactly work. It could be but at the moment it is not. I am a systems engineer.

There is a lot to unpack in this. I strongly agree with you that work is about as central to our identity as can be.

I've been miserable at NYC tech companies with unlimited vacation and catered lunches... And a crappy attitude was at least 50% of that misery. (2 months of covid-19 and I find myself missing the commute at times)

When I was in school I worked for the university for free tuition. I was a groundskeeper and mowed and planted. I was outside. I occasionally drove a dumptruck to get loads of gravel or dirt. I worked with a guy who dropped out of highschool and played heavy metal in our truck as we drove around campus. When it rained we would hide out and play chess. He was an interesting dude full of contradictions.

I hated the job because I felt humiliated as a student working a menial job on campus. In hindsight I can see how important a job it was. It enabled me to get through school and afford a place to live. There were fun moments and good experiences (driving a full dumptruck down route18 is its own thrill...)

I was limited mostly by my attitude and a posture - who I thought I was. Dreaming about being somewhere else and avoiding people I knew.

I still catch myself engaging in that kind of behavior.

We do need to relate to each other as humans though work. This requires lots of re-calibration.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#532

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #422
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans evolved to be in groups of about 30-100 people who they knew their whole lives and thus making catastrophic deception nearly impossible. A plausible just-so story, but still only that.

American Indians and Aboriginal Australians have been living like that well into historical times, and people were around to document their lives and societies - there's no real reason to suppose that humans at the most primitive state of society were living any differently. In a way, it's the one style of social organization that has truly stood the test of time; everything else has been a glorified self-imposed exp…

> American Indians and Aboriginal Australians have been living like that well into historical times...

They're not time travelers from the past. They're our contemporaries, who are every bit as 'modern' as us. They just made a different set of choices along their historical arc.

> ...there's no real reason to suppose that humans at the most primitive state of society were living any differently.

At the same time there's also no real reason to suppose that primitive humans were living any similarly.

We just don't know. Any attempt to frame this differently is just ideology.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#533

Post by Aeolun »

sudosysgen wrote: post #324
Aeolun wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem in the current US political system is that a tiny majority of votes wins you everything. If this won you the 49% you deserve, then things would be different.

This is why you should simply strike. 10% of the US population striking would exert immense power and make the ruling class crumble.

10% of the US population is currently unintendedly striking. I don’t see the ruling class crumble yet.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#534

Post by joekrill »

xiaolingxiao wrote: post #39

I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonpr…

This is such a defeatist attitude and, I think, completely unnecessary. And saying it as fact sort of perpetuates the whole situation. It doesn't have to be this way. But most people allow it to be this way.

> Your co-workers may be amazing, but they were never your friends.

Anecdotally, I've met some of my best friends by working with them. I have many friends that I haven't met through work, but when you spend the bulk of your day with people you form bonds - and friendships - with them. It's sort of human nature.

> There's what you love, and there's what you do. It's best to keep some distance: because no one cares about what you love.

What you love and what you do don't _have_ to be different. And some people _do_ care about what you love. Most don't, sure. And at most larger companies you _are_ just a cog in the wheel. But that doesn't mean folks shouldn't strive to find meaningful work that they love to do. It may not pay as well monetarily, but it pays in other ways.

> No, you only cared them inso far as they can cook for you. This is how others saw you.

I don't seek out the immigrant family, but I'm friendly and cordial with them. I chat with them and treat them as equals. I pay them fairly for what they provide me. I don't try to squeeze every last cent out of them or negotiate my meal from them, or make them feel like less of a person. And in return they provide the same. Maybe I'm naive, sure. But if so, at least I'm not an asshole.

> Big companies, and indeed most big institutions is made by a silent majority of the defeated.

This is mostly true. I agree. It's unfortunate. But big institutions aren't the only options.

> You have to look elsewhere.

You don't have to. You can, and in some cases you should. But it's not the only option. There ARE people who aren't wholly obsessed with making money at all costs. Unfortunately, in the US at least, a lot of people don't have that attitude and _are_ obsessed with making money at all costs. And our society (at least in the US) has been built in ways that praise that sort of attitude. But there are plenty of people who aren't like that. It's hard to find them sometimes, depending on what sort of circles you run in and the sort of people you surround yourself with - but they are out there.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#535

Post by prvc »

>For a long time I couldn't focus on any remotely intellectual pursuit. I even thought I permanently damaged my brain.

He didn't appear to mention the presumed cause of this. Stress?

As to the rest of the contents, it's a mistake to assume that two experiences given labels of "high-point" and "low point" having a common feature implies that all other experiences of the same species (presumed to be on some spectrum that they bookend) also share that feature. Maybe were he to have worked for a smaller scale established company, he would have found his experience to be less unpleasant.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#536

Post by kristopolous »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #516
kristopolous wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, let's go back to 2014. I was working on a project, a web front end. The ticket was "change color of button". This sounded easy, modify the CSS. However, the CSS was generated. From YAML. The YAML was generated from JSON. the JSON was pulled from mongo. The Mongo was updated through a strictly validated XSLT that had an enumeration of colors. Those colors did not include the button color we needed. Don't worry! Th…

> However, the CSS was generated. From YAML. The YAML was generated from JSON. the JSON was pulled from mongo. The Mongo was updated through a strictly validated XSLT that had an enumeration of colors. I thought you were exaggerating to make a joke. Sigh. > I left. Company is worth over $100 million today, looks like I'm the loser I guess. Somebody played the lottery and won. 99.9999% played and lost. You are not a "…

The idea was that if they were going to port native than wow, we'd have this one amazing way to create all these interfaces on different systems!

As if we'd have 5 or so platforms and a single command to go "presto!" and build on a bunch of devices with a slight button offset change.

I always said "how about, if you want a linux version in qt, you fire up qt creator, drag your mouse around a bit, click a few times, take 20 minutes and that's it. You then literally just walk away because the work is done".

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#537

Post by bregma »

moneywoes wrote: post #163
xiaolingxiao wrote: post #39

I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonpr…

Well said. External gratification won't solve anything. Any advice to someone new in the industry to avoid burnout?

It's just a job.

Always leave them wanting more.

(disclaimer: I've been in the industry for over 40 years... these days I avoid burnout by counting the dollars until I retire)

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#538

Post by christophilus »

dgudkov wrote: post #488
xiaolingxiao wrote: post #39

I have also experience close to burnout and recovered multiple times, in the process I have lost very precious relationships, and entire years were spent in darkness. I also have friends who have been in tech for close to ten years, and are close to burning out though they would never admit to such. This is the nature of the beast, all things that appear glamorous on the outside ( Hollywood, Finance, Tech, many nonpr…

This sounds so American to me. I grew up in Eastern Europe and general attitude towards work, life, and friendship is so much different. Some of the best friendships I've made were at the companies I worked for. I've seen cases where people make so good friendships at work that it even makes them postpone switching jobs to move up the career ladder. Work is not everything in your life. Work is important for sure, but…

I’m in the US and my experience is the same as yours. Maybe 50% of my friends are coworkers and former coworkers. I have almost always stayed at companies longer than I otherwise would because I loved my coworkers.

Burnout for me is caused by too much bureaucracy, too many meetings, and incompatible programming philosophies. Only twice in my long career have I left a job due to an insufferable coworker.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#539

Post by badpun »

draugadrotten wrote: post #441
polskibus wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most people it's not about trying to be successful. It's about not having to be stressed out daily about basic needs like home, health, transport, kids upbringing etc. Unfortunately it all costs a lot of money these days, which makes you take a compromise for the sake of security for you and your closest relatives.

> It's about not having to be stressed out daily about basic needs like home, health, transport, kids upbringing etc. That is a problem that is better solved with politics than with technology. There is enough in the world that if we shared more, most people would not have to worry about these things. (I say most, solving for "all" is more difficult) But let's be honest. Work isn't always going to be fun . Not having…

> There is enough in the world that if we shared more, most people would not have to worry about these things. (I say most, solving for "all" is more difficult)

This is the state we are in now already - most people, as long as they have jobs, don't have to worry about these things.

Re: Extremely disillusioned with technology. Please help

#540

Post by mcnamaratw »

yownie wrote: post #176
cat199 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... as were those that think biology predetermines everything

not really sure what point you're trying to make here. You don't believe in biology?

I'm not sure this is fair. Nobody really knows to what extent psychopathy is inherited vs caused by upbringing. The problem isn't necessarily disbelief in biology, the problem is nobody actually knows the answer.

Challenging something that's universally challenged seems comprehensible to me.

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