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Bye, Amazon

tbray.org

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Re: Bye, Amazon

#941

Post by Wilem82 »

la6471 wrote: post #938
jillesvangurp wrote: post #122

It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to be met. Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their employees voiced concerns about ce…

I don't think many people in amazon agree with Tim Bray. The pragmatic ones know that these kind of stories have a heavy political overtone , but more importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other retailers in the world. Granted it is not perfect but a more meaningful way to change the condition of minimum wage or low wage laborers is through legislative changes or basic income schemes.

> more importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other retailers in the world

That's not possible, the US has the worst worker protection laws in the world, it's really quite an undeveloped country in that regard.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#942

Post by brchn »

la6471 wrote: post #938
jillesvangurp wrote: post #122

It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to be met. Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their employees voiced concerns about ce…

I don't think many people in amazon agree with Tim Bray. The pragmatic ones know that these kind of stories have a heavy political overtone , but more importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other retailers in the world. Granted it is not perfect but a more meaningful way to change the condition of minimum wage or low wage laborers is through legislative changes or basic income schemes.

he's talking about the firing of whistleblowers though

Re: Bye, Amazon

#943

Post by brchn »

ignoramous wrote: post #784
hourislate wrote: post #615

Completely anecdotal. It's possible some Amazon Warehouses are run better than others. A friend who recently got a job (5 weeks ago) at one of Amazons warehouses (NJ/NYC area) has only praise for the way things are run. They take his temperature 3 times a day, provide a mask, constantly monitor social distancing, clean washrooms every hour, enforce social distancing in any break rooms, work areas, etc. He says it's n…

Bray acknowledged that much. > On the other hand, Amazon’s messaging has been urgent that they are prioritizing this issue and putting massive efforts into warehouse safety. I actually believe this: I have heard detailed descriptions from people I trust of the intense work and huge investments. Good for them; and let’s grant that you don’t turn a supertanker on a dime. > But I believe the worker testimony too. And at…

Exactly. Too many people are refuting the protestors' claims about warehouse conditions, when that's not the point of his argument.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#944

Post by MuffinFlavored »

uoaei wrote: post #881
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that Amazon is so cheap you mean the company that pays high wages?

You have a very myopic view of what Amazon is and what roles the majority of its labor force occupy. The bulk of Amazon's workforce are delivery drivers, warehouse workers, and datacenter rats. They are not paid fairly. It's pretty obvious from the numbers. For more supporting evidence, read TFA.

https://www.google.com/search?q=amazon+15+hr+minimum+wage

Re: Bye, Amazon

#945

Post by s1artibartfast »

gnicholas wrote: post #933
s1artibartfast wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I hard, Amazon had a 4 year 5/15/40/40 vesting schedule. In my experience, stock compensation exceeds salary for most executives. If 50% of compensation was in stock, they would be walking away from 2.2 years salary worth of grants, which would have appreciated since the grant date. Amazon stock is also up >4x in the last 4 years.

I've heard the same; that would mean that AWS employees in general would stand to lose a decent amount of equity, depending on where they are in their cycle.

That's the trick. There are new stock grants every year, so you continually stand to lose a substantial sum by leaving. Hence the name: long term incentives.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#946

Post by quantified »

softwaredoug wrote: post #779
taurath wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course as he is pointing out, he's in a position where he can afford to do so financially I'd just want to point out that the workers who are in the middle are the ones who can afford to do so financially and have the power to make management change things. If you're a programmer and make decent money, consider not putting yourself in a position where you must compromise your morals, such as accepting the compan…

Also why a FAANG anticompetitive stranglehold on tech is so horrifying. If you speak out against Amazon, will another tech giant hire you? Probably not...

I will.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#947

Post by billy_beef »

la6471 wrote: post #938
jillesvangurp wrote: post #122

It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to be met. Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their employees voiced concerns about ce…

I don't think many people in amazon agree with Tim Bray. The pragmatic ones know that these kind of stories have a heavy political overtone , but more importantly amazon probably have better conditions than all other retailers in the world. Granted it is not perfect but a more meaningful way to change the condition of minimum wage or low wage laborers is through legislative changes or basic income schemes.

I think it’s more likely that smart people understand that speaking out or appearing to be in open dissent to the way amazon works is not a wise career move. Seems like a perfectly reasonable place to expect widespread preference falsification.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#948

Post by billy_beef »

quotemstr wrote: post #876
jillesvangurp wrote: post #122

It's a wake up call, or at least an attempt at that, for the likes of Amazon that if they are looking to have reputable people, like Tim Bray, associate themselves and their name with you, there are certain standards that have to be met. Amazon, MS, Google, Apple, etc. rank among the most wealthy companies in the world and they've each had to deal with internal pressures where their employees voiced concerns about ce…

I don't think Amazon is going to have any trouble at all filling open headcount with talented people on account of maintaining a politics-free workplace. It's become fashionable in tech among a certain crowd to bombard coworkers with divisive messaging about controversial social issues, to leak confidential information to sympathetic external press, and to demonize anyone who objects. This practice must end, and I ad…

This quickly begins to sound like a 21st century “we were only following orders” argument, no?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#949

Post by thruwawy32535 »

This is one of the most up-voted posts on this site, and the post itself is a mere 20hrs old. Yet it's been bounced from the front page. The bias of the HN mods really showing itself today.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#950

Post by WolfeReader »

kjgkjhfkjf wrote: post #918
WolfeReader wrote: post #915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence of these more mundane reasons? Otherwise, you're just speculating. And since Bray did a very good job of linking to sources for his stated reasons, I'm inclined to take his claims seriously at least until other evidence indicates otherwise. (On the other hand, I highly suspect that you yourself have "other" reasons to cast doubt on Bray's claims. I have as much reason to doubt your motives as…

Is it not clear that I was speculating from language like "my guess is", and is it not clear that I'm not trying to cast aspersions on Tim's specific motives from language like "I don't mean to rag specifically on Tim"?

All of your uses of "he" were referring to Bray himself. That's how pronouns work.

And you can say "guess" all you want. There was nothing in his post, or any other article I know of, that indicates Bray's motives were anything other than what he said (and backed up with extensive supporting evidence). So your motivation to "guess" doesn't come from the article itself, nor from any competing evidence (which I doubt exists since you would've already posted it).

"I don't mean to specifically call out kjgkjhfkjf, but my guess is that he feels compelled to downplay legitimate criticisms of Amazon, and he used the well-known techniques of ad-hominem and FUD as a means to defend Amazon without actual compelling counterarguments." <- I assume you agree with that sentence, since it uses all of your same rhetorical techniques.

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