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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#291

Post by dave5104 »

taywrobel wrote: post #252
pdeuchler wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The individual officers are often just too dumb You know, my dad always told me to just listen to people... eventually they'll tell you who they truly are.

During a training, demonstrating how to do geo searches on license plate data from ALPRs, a detective insisted we look up their car. The hits were all more or less expected, a bunch around their home and the precinct, local supermarkets, etc. But then a weird grouping way out of town. Detective insisted it was a mistake and wanted more data, thinking someone stole his license plate (insert eye roll here). Anyways, zo…

This right here is a great argument for why "helping them use [the data they already have] more effectively" (as you've said) is probably not as great a mission as you're making it out to be.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#292

Post by vorpalhex »

azinman2 wrote: post #257
yters wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you so sure the data remains private? Has Apple never handed data over to the gov. for investigations criminal and otherwise? Some of the genetic companies hand data to the FBI. The reason is great and moral, tracking down serial killers and the like. But, still, regardless of how good the proximate reason, the overarching trend is not so great. And yes, I'm sure all the telecoms, hospitals, etc. also hand ov…

Because this data doesn't exist on Apple servers, and what does exist are a bunch of randomly generated identifiers. Have you read the proposal at all [1]? [1] https://www.apple.com/covid19/contacttracing

It's not clear from these specifications on how the rolling IDs are associated with a single user after a diagnosis is made, and whether those keys are interlinked. While this explains the phone-to-phone model it does not explain the other half of the system from what I can tell.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#294

Post by dingo_bat »

vinay427 wrote: post #122
ivarojha wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about Android, but if you're on iOS you have the choice to disable "full location access". In case it's needed to run certain feature in the app, you can choose the "Allow while using" option. I do that will all the apps that require location access: local food delivery, cab services, vehicle rental and what not.

My Android device allows for completely disabling location access (regardless of whether the app requires it) or for allowing access while the app is in use, as you mentioned. I'm never sure if these features are OEM additions or features in standard/AOSP Android versions, so I guess if you're using an Android device YMMV.

The app won't work if you disable location.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#296

Post by colordrops »

joshuamorton wrote: post #290
choppaface wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-vax movement challenges science itself; the anti-Google/Apple movement challenges corporate-level ethics and human control over identity. You can independently reproduce experiments demonstrating the efficacy of medicine. You can’t reproduce the faith that you place in your own corporation.

While that might be an argument in general, the protocol Google and apple are working in is cryptographically secure. They provably can't back out data about you.

Is their code open source? How do you know this?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#297

Post by deathgrips »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Comparing privacy advocates to anti-vaxxers is a bad-faith tactic that steers the conversation away from the technology.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#298

Post by viraptor »

shakna wrote: post #258
viraptor wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a crime to see how any of the app is running. Have you got something supporting this? Here's a panel of Australian-based security people decompiling and discussion the details of the app: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4 Are you saying they've all publicly admitted to committing a crime and are unaware of those laws? Are all editors here https://docs.google.com/document/d/17GuApb1fG3Bn0_DVgDQgrtnd..…

It isn't actually a law yet - that happens later this month. Instead, we've received a determination by the minister [0], which will act as a kind of back-date for when those laws are passed. > A person must not decrypt encrypted COVID app data that is stored on a mobile telecommunications device. That video shows them looking into how the data bundle is assembled, but I don't believe they actually touch it or run it…

IANAL, but I think your interpretation goes beyond what they're after.

The determination is clearly aimed at data usage and prevents people from trying to decrypt the reports from other users. The whole fragment of the interview is about the data produced by the app and how it should be protected as sensitive information. I can't see anything there that would prevent you from reverse engineering "to see how any of the app is running."

It's not even obfuscated or protected from decompilation in any way, so it's trivial to look at with static analysis tools. (i.e. without trying to run it)

Even the headings don't mention the code: "Collection, use or disclosure of COVID app data", "Treatment of COVID app data", "Decrypting COVID app data", "Coercing the use of COVIDSafe".

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#299

Post by deathgrips »

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #223
CuriousCosmic wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone involved with the industry, this is my take. The work defence contractors do and will continue to do is a measurable positive in the world. This work generally falls into three categories: First is projects that make the lives of armed forces personnel easier. There is no moral or ethical hazard with these projects. They simply are making it so that pre-existing work, often non-combat work, is less tedious…

Even those first two can have fairly foreseeable negative effects, though. Not necessarily net negative, mind you, but negative. If (e.g.) American soldiers have less tedium in their downtime (e.g., because paperwork is automated) and are safer (e.g. because their body armor is better), it could very reasonably lead to missions or even whole wars being undertaken that would otherwise be unconscionable. It's kind of l…

That's the point of armies, to be as lethal and effective as possible. A protracted war benefits no one, and a powerful army acts as a deterrent. I think that if you think your country has the right to self-defense, you have a moral obligation to make it as lethal as possible. Ethics is not an excuse for inaction or abandonment of responsibility.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#300

Post by plerpin »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #241
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Show me any institution that has maintained trustworthiness for all of history, and I'll consider trusting Apple/Google/our govt. with the ability to tell where every citizen is and who they associate with for the rest of the future.

Read the fine specification.
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