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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#251

Post by bjz_ »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying authoritarian tendencies another tool.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#252

Post by taywrobel »

pdeuchler wrote: post #205
taywrobel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve only worked with a handful of LEOs in my time there, but the ones I did work with were genuinely concerned about it. If you’ve never worked with a government agency before, let me tell you, Hanlon’s Razor is in full effect. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. The higher ups know that free reign for their officers to look up anything is a recipe for legal nightmares. The ind…

> The individual officers are often just too dumb You know, my dad always told me to just listen to people... eventually they'll tell you who they truly are.

During a training, demonstrating how to do geo searches on license plate data from ALPRs, a detective insisted we look up their car.

The hits were all more or less expected, a bunch around their home and the precinct, local supermarkets, etc. But then a weird grouping way out of town. Detective insisted it was a mistake and wanted more data, thinking someone stole his license plate (insert eye roll here).

Anyways, zooming in and looking at the highest density of hits, it ended up being a strip club that he frequented. He got bright red and his buddies didn't stop giving him shit for it all day.

And this was a detective, not a beat officer.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#253

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

zaroth wrote: post #138
taywrobel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

The same argument is actually used w.r.t. DHS/ICE using GitHub to work on software to better track illegal immigrants. This is software that will ostensibly cut down on errors and speed up processing times for things like asylum claims, but for some reason Github was called out as being complicit. I think the argument against Palantir is better formed than an argument against Github based on specificity of the tool,…

One is explicit, the other implicit.

Palantir is _explicitly_ contracted by a government to create a tool for combining surveillance information to make tracking individuals more effective.

Github is providing tools (Github Enterprise IIRC) which is presumable being used to create tools which are used to track and deport individuals.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#254

Post by yters »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Why are you so sure the data remains private? Has Apple never handed data over to the gov. for investigations criminal and otherwise? Some of the genetic companies hand data to the FBI. The reason is great and moral, tracking down serial killers and the like. But, still, regardless of how good the proximate reason, the overarching trend is not so great.

And yes, I'm sure all the telecoms, hospitals, etc. also hand over our data. Adding one more, much more comprehensive data source to the pile doesn't help anything.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#255

Post by dvtrn »

selectodude wrote: post #246
droopyEyelids wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me any institution that has maintained trustworthiness for all of history, and I'll consider trusting Apple/Google/our govt. with the ability to tell where every citizen is and who they associate with for the rest of the future.

I'm just not sure why we're more trusting of our wireless service providers who have explicitly given personal location data away to not only the government, but also to advertisers, than we are of Apple who would love to sell us another $1200 phone.

Convenience.

Convenience always wins.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#256

Post by taywrobel »

pmiller2 wrote: post #222
taywrobel wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying we should shrug and say anything goes. I’m saying all these companies share one commonality - the are building things for the US government. If you want to see change that is more than just superficial, that’s where you need to make it.

That's just it: I don't want to see that kind of change. Edit: Changed "we don't" to "I don't". I don't want to claim to speak for anyone else but myself.

You don't want to see what kind of change?

I'm talking about neutering the surveillance state. That's not something that demonizing individual companies is ever going to do. You need to push for that change at the government level.

Unless you're pro-surveillance, but your previous comments made it seem like the opposite.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#257

Post by azinman2 »

yters wrote: post #254
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Why are you so sure the data remains private? Has Apple never handed data over to the gov. for investigations criminal and otherwise? Some of the genetic companies hand data to the FBI. The reason is great and moral, tracking down serial killers and the like. But, still, regardless of how good the proximate reason, the overarching trend is not so great. And yes, I'm sure all the telecoms, hospitals, etc. also hand ov…

Because this data doesn't exist on Apple servers, and what does exist are a bunch of randomly generated identifiers. Have you read the proposal at all [1]?

[1] https://www.apple.com/covid19/contacttracing

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#258

Post by shakna »

viraptor wrote: post #240
shakna wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the bug bounty programs? That's easy. It's a crime to see how any of the app is running. Reporting a security flaw would likely see you receive a $5000 fine, and potential jail time atop of that. They didn't bother to get the servers running before pushing out a gigantic advertising campaign shaming anyone for not using it. ... Despite it having obvious flaws from day one, that showed it was mostly a cut 'n…

> It's a crime to see how any of the app is running. Have you got something supporting this? Here's a panel of Australian-based security people decompiling and discussion the details of the app: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dN99ljgD4 Are you saying they've all publicly admitted to committing a crime and are unaware of those laws? Are all editors here https://docs.google.com/document/d/17GuApb1fG3Bn0_DVgDQgrtnd..…

It isn't actually a law yet - that happens later this month. Instead, we've received a determination by the minister [0], which will act as a kind of back-date for when those laws are passed.

> A person must not decrypt encrypted COVID app data that is stored on a mobile telecommunications device.

That video shows them looking into how the data bundle is assembled, but I don't believe they actually touch it or run it in an emulator, which would very much breach the determination - because unless you're one of the exceptions, you're not legally allowed to run the software outside of tracing.

Exceptions are given for those in employ of the health department, or other government bodies.

Whilst that might vaguely not mean decompiling the app, the minister's own press conference is clearer on the intent [1]:

> It cannot leave the country, it cannot be accessed by anybody other than a state public health official, it cannot be used for any purpose other than the provision of data for the purposes of finding people with whom you have been in close contact, and it is punishable by jail if there is a breach of that.

Decompiling the app steps outside the provisions for looking at the data, and yes, you don't have permission to look at your own data.

[0] https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2020L00480/Html/Text

[1] https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/the-hon-greg-hunt-mp/med...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#259

Post by lern_too_spel »

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I know people at Facebook who say the same thing, but at the end of the day, both companies only pay lip service to privacy in the way their products and services actually operate.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#260

Post by valtism »

bjz_ wrote: post #251
azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

As an Australian who has privacy concerns their government's COVIDSafe app (see https://github.com/vteague/contactTracing ), and hence not installing it, I'm really thankful that Apple and Google are pushing this model of contact tracing. We still don't know if digital contact tracing is effective in practice, but it's still important to try, but we can do this in a way that avoids giving governments with worrying au…

COVIDSafe will be using these new APIs.
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