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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

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Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#151

Post by shakna »

ObsoleteNerd wrote: post #114
aaron695 wrote: post #92

Can anyone show me an app in the wild that uses Bluetooth like or close to what the Covid apps wants to? Why isn't HN talking about the technical side at all? We know Bluetooth on phones can't do what the governments says it can. We've all gone through the stage of, what if we used Bluetooth to track people indoors and do cool stuff! Then we realise you can't. The best we see is advertising maybe doing low quality be…

The Australian one seems to follow the spec pretty will. Uses rolling random IDs and BT RSSI to check for proximity to infected people. “Infected” is declared by the patients getting the hospital to input a private key when they’re diagnosed, which then uploads their last x days of random IDs to declare them as infected. Source code is public and has been shared/audited on twitter etc but no formal audits that I’ve s…

> Source code is public and has been shared/audited on twitter etc but no formal audits that I’ve seen yet.

I don't believe that's true. There is certainly decompiled code floating around, but release of the code has been delayed whilst the Signals Directorate investigate the app. [0]

Worth noting that decompiling the app to see if it actually does what it says it does is a crime under the legislation backing it.

> Agreed. The PIA and source code will be released subject to consultation with the Australian Signals Directorate’s Australian Cyber Security Centre.

[0] https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2020...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#152

Post by taywrobel »

nicwolff wrote: post #109
taywrobel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

> Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. And that's the problem – they're giving governments tools that let them more easily and effectively infringe on the privacy rights of their citizens. Privacy isn't invaded when the data is collected, although that's a necessary step; it's invaded when a cop or bureaucrat queries that data to see what a citizen has done. Giving them that tool is morally complic…

As soon as the data is collected it is going to be used. That is where the privacy invasion is. If a massive data set on citizens leaks and becomes available online, people will still consider it an invasion of privacy, even if it was never "used" prior.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#153

Post by tinus_hn »

jb775 wrote: post #137

The title says "ban use of location tracking", but the article says "will not allow use of GPS data". There are many ways to extrapolate a user's precise location from non-GPS data.

That kind of data, for instance visible access points or cell towers, is not available for apps on iOS.

If you disagree, could you please list ways you think this can be done?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#155

Post by jimmaswell »

three_seagrass wrote: post #23

I mean, imagine the repercussions of allowing third party apps to do this. It's tragedy of the commons for health info. i.e. A crappy mobile app that spams notifications when you're around someone who was in contact with Covid infected. One which doesn't have any oversight and motivation other than mobile ad views.

The repurcussion is.. you know someone near you was in contact with covid (a good thing to know) and it has ads (devs need to eat too)?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#156

Post by Someone »

The title of this article is incorrect. FTA: “Apple […] and […] Google on Monday said they would ban the use of location tracking in apps that use a new contact tracing system the two are building”.

So, contact tracing apps that don’t use that system, such as the one from the UK (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52441428) still would be allowed to do location tracking.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#157

Post by alex_young »

taywrobel wrote: post #116
bduerst wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interned in St. Louis one summer and my neighbor worked at Boeing. The only reason I remember him to this day is because he introduced himself as a programmer working on smart bombs. He immediately said it was okay because he didn't fire the bombs, he just made them smarter so they didn't kill innocent people.

Is it a realistic expectation that we have no one working on smart bombs/weapons technology in general? I’d love to be in the utopia world where there is no war and the entire planet gets along. But even the US has political bipolar disorder, so we’re a looooong way from global peace. I do think we spend an absurd and inappropriate amount on defense, but as long as we are forced to develop weapons due to the global g…

Maybe you can’t convince everyone else to behave ethically, but you can hold yourself to that standard. Working on bomb tech is over a line for me personally.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#158

Post by smeyer »

estebarb wrote: post #148

The GPS data couldn't be "rounded" to have less precision, depending on population density?

Wouldn't that sort of defeat the point here?

Contact tracing apps want to use location data to know when I might have been in contact with someone. If you do something like round the data to a suburban neighborhood or a densely populated city block in Manhattan, you can't effectively contact trace.

Any granularity of data that is useful for contact tracing would seemingly raise the same concerns that are leading to them banning this.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#159

Post by PaulKeeble »

jedberg wrote: post #125
PaulKeeble wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then Google would be building a whitelist. They aren't doing that, they are using a position of power to isolate the market for themselves. That is a monopoly.

They are building a whitelist. They even made the criteria public. You have to be a government or health entity to publish a Covid related app.

That isn't a whitelist, there is no way on it with a legitimate app when the entry criteria is being a state.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#160

Post by taywrobel »

zxcmx wrote: post #144
taywrobel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you think querying a database is the same as shooting someone. If so, please don’t tell me you’re a DBA.

I think this is position is a bit naive. Like saying "but child porn is just bits, like any other type of file". A crucial step in shooting someone (or a drone strike) is figuring out who to target and where they are. The fact that this is an important use case for Palantir makes it not hyperbole to talk about "weaponising information".

> I think this is position is a bit naive. Like saying "but child porn is just bits, like any other type of file".

Everything has a domain it operates in, so I believe that statement has nuance. In particular when you look at how general or specific the domain is.

From the perspective of something uploaded to S3? It sure is like any other file.

From the perspective of a website dedicated to the dissemination of child porn? It clearly is more than "just bits" in that context.

How about from the perspective of a search engine, where that site may be indexed? Welcome to the grey area that all of these debates are rooted in. Technically it's just indexed strings or ngrams, so it is like any other type of file. But there's an argument that a search engine should "know more" than just the raw data, and should be able to understand that context somehow.

Palantir is in this grey area. The software isn't built for spying. It's built for managing and understanding vast amounts of data. Can this be used for spying? Yes. It can also be used for double blind clinical trials. Or maintaining insurance systems. Or coordinating disaster relief efforts.

It operates technologically in a very general domain, but their flexible user-defined ontology makes it very powerful at operating in more specific domains. So it's a lot less cut and dry than the dissenters make it seem, IMHO.

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