Bye, Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Bye, Amazon

#841

Post by tzs » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

AlexCoventry wrote: post #794

xenocyon wrote: post #688

My personal snapping point as a consumer occurred several years ago, over something that's definitely not anecdotal: When Amazon employees are frisked at the end of their shift (which is a practice that applies to at least some warehouses), they are not paid for the time they spend waiting in line to be frisked. This is not an anecdote; indeed Amazon fought and won a court case insisting that it has the right to not…

> See https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-amazon-com/u-s-... . Where is the 2014 Supreme Court ruling mentioned by this article?

Something went wrong with your link, replacing a large part of it with "..". I think this is the unmangled link [1].

Anyway, there wasn't actually a Supreme Court ruling. The workers appealed their loss in the appellate court to the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

Aside from a few specific types of cases the Supreme Court has discretionary jurisdiction rather than mandatory jurisdiction. This was one of those discretionary jurisdiction cases.

When they decline to take a case they generally do not give a reason. It may be because they think the appellate court got it right and there is nothing more to say on the issue. On the other hand, it may be because they think the appellate court is not right but what is right is not clear and they want to see the issue arise in other districts and see what the appellate courts in those other districts decide before they take a case on the issue. Or they may be ready to tackle the issue, but they just don't like this particular case as a vehicle for deciding the issue and want to wait for a case that would work better.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-amazon-com/u-s-...

Re: Bye, Amazon

#842

Post by jamil7 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

product50 wrote: post #750

toasterlovin wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?

No one at Hacker News will consider this. Here people will criticize big corporations (by generalizing few anecdotal examples) and demand higher pay while sitting inside their million dollar houses (and stopping new housing construction near them) ordering stuff from Amazon.

You're poking holes in people's comments in this thread for generalizing while making wild generalizations yourself about HN membership? Why pick this hill to die on?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#843

Post by lambdasquirrel » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #822

Very difficult to put emotion aside when thinking about these things. I expect to be crucified for even asking this question because the audience here has a bias towards supporting activism. But oh well here goes: If Amazon condone and even enable employee activism, what bad things could that enable? I don’t mean unions. I mean a group of say 20 employees trying to bring about a change they truly believe in. Amazon h…

Good point. There’s a bit of apples and oranges here when you get down to the specifics.

Specifically, Tim is pissed because Amazon fired some whistleblowers. Not just once, and it sounds like it has happened over a period of time. In other words, there were workplace violations happening, people tried to go through proper channels, and then reported it when that didn’t work, and then they got fired.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#844

Post by dhagz » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #822

Very difficult to put emotion aside when thinking about these things. I expect to be crucified for even asking this question because the audience here has a bias towards supporting activism. But oh well here goes: If Amazon condone and even enable employee activism, what bad things could that enable? I don’t mean unions. I mean a group of say 20 employees trying to bring about a change they truly believe in. Amazon h…

I'm sure there are terms in the employment contract that Amazon can use to justify firing these employees. And I do agree that the circumstances of condoning activism at Amazon can lead to some very bad places. I also think that there most certainly are actions taken by the employees who were fired that may make the terminations look more justified. Basically - there are parts of the story we are not seeing, context missing.

HOWEVER, that still does not make Amazon right in this. Sure, they followed corporate bylaws and did the things to legally cover their asses, but that doesn't mean they're wearing a white dress here. There are certainly systemic problems within Amazon the lower down the payscale you go, and Amazon trying to silence attempts to bring attention to that is more damning than the problems themselves in my mind.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#845

Post by cbsmith » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #458

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

It might make certain large organizations reluctant to bring him on board, but I imagine those organizations wouldn't be places he'd like to work. I think there will be other large organizations that would be more inclined to hire him; if nothing else, this makes hiring him a good branding exercise with other employees. Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I'd like to think at least when you are talented enough, sticking…

As expected: https://twitter.com/timbray/status/1257383599424315397

Re: Bye, Amazon

#846

Post by tsegratis » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

Can we also do something ourselves?

AWS spending and consumers turning a blind eye enables such issues to arise

These things are fueled not just by desire for profit, but also our own materialistic focus. If we buy into the latest and greatest products, rather than where they came from, then to some extent isn't it we who have enabled these rights abuses in various countries and companies, to support our own appetites?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#847

Post by efuquen » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:06 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #653

pwinnski wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bray didn't quit over the conditions in the warehouses, he quit over Amazon's brazen and dishonest firings of organizers. It's possible that if every Amazon warehouse were run as well, those organizers would not have arisen, but it's Amazon nastiness toward them that's most alarming.

Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?

[flagged]

Re: Bye, Amazon

#848

Post by theduder99 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

ianleeclark wrote: post #119

chrisan wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. I'd suggest working with or managing a place with low-skilled people. They of course aren't all like that but it seems it attracts low-motivation, low-effort, or low-caring. I can only provide 2 anecdotes, but I can see why people get treated this way after time. I highly doubt there are many people…

> I'd suggest working with or managing a place with low-skilled people. They of course aren't all like that but it seems it attracts low-motivation, low-effort, or low-caring Pay low wage, get low motivation. No one's going to bust their ass over a mcgriddle for minimum wage.

I busted my butt as a 16 y.o. minimum wage worker, didn't you?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#849

Post by wpietri » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

DriveReduction wrote: post #826

toasterlovin wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction?

> Have you considered the possibility that Amazon actually treats their workers okay and that it's the organizers are dishonest? Why does the presumption of evil only go in one direction? Yes. As an example: > We’re already seeing devastating climate impacts: unprecedented flooding in India and Mozambique, dry water wells in Africa, coastal displacement in Asia, wildfires and floods in North America, and crop failure…

> What does transporting a cardboard box have anything to do with flooding in Mozambique?

25% of the US's carbon emissions are from transportation.

> Amazon is just 1% of whatever that is.

Everybody works somewhere. Workers have more power over their own companies than they do over others. It's great that Amazon workers are trying to use that power for good.

> If you want to shape ecology, you do it through regulations (statutes).

That's one place to push. And you know who'd be good at pushing for regulatory change? Organized workers. Large companies that have decided to minimize ecological impact. Industry organizations made up of those companies.

But that's not the only way change happens. It's a big problem with many fronts. If you think you can best use your time and money by calling up your reps, go to it. However, these people have decided differently. I'm willing to trust that they know best how to achieve their goals.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#850

Post by netsharc » Mon, May 04, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

mmaunder wrote: post #822

Very difficult to put emotion aside when thinking about these things. I expect to be crucified for even asking this question because the audience here has a bias towards supporting activism. But oh well here goes: If Amazon condone and even enable employee activism, what bad things could that enable? I don’t mean unions. I mean a group of say 20 employees trying to bring about a change they truly believe in. Amazon h…

> If Amazon condone and even enable employee activism

Is this (what the whistleblowers did, and Mr. Bray is implicitly supporting by quitting) even activism? They were afraid of the well-being of the Amazon employees.

Is it comparable to complaining that the wooden stairs to go into the office is rotten and may fall at any moment? That's not activism, it's just basic workspace safety.