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Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

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Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#261

Post by ksml »

0d9eooo wrote: post #201
hysan wrote: post #198

Not too surprising that the experience wasn’t good. Having taught in-person and online before, I can guarantee that these students ended up with a sub-optimal experience at best. Teaching online is drastically different than in-person and is not something you can easily pick-up in short notice. Made worse is that they were in the middle of a syllabus designed for in-person instruction. How material is delivered, what…

I've not taught online, but I have a close colleague who was doing it for years pre-pandemic, and another colleague who did a bit of it and my impressions are the same. My sense is that major universities doing online stuff have video production crews (from Communications etc) and everything is heavily edited and redone. It's more like a television show than anything else. Much more preplanning, and interactions with…

I'm at Stanford, and at least within the CS department, the online classes are nothing like you describe. Some professors are using video recordings from previous quarters, while in many other cases, it _is_ some off-the-cuff Zoom meeting. As a lecturer, it's been difficult to transition.

I have my doubts that students will be back in the fall. The contagiousness of this virus is not going away, and students (particularly undergraduates, almost all of which live in dorms at Stanford) are far too densely connected for social distancing to be effective.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#262

Post by vorpalhex »

battery_cowboy wrote: post #254
saagarjha wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should students who were planning on graduating and finding employment do?

I hate this, but they'll have to cope, just like those who lost their jobs and those who lost family and friends. It sucks, but the real issue is that there's no social safety net for these types of folks in many places, which makes my first sentence sound kinda uncaring, but there's not many other options. The other major issue is that, for a lot of the students in college, they don't really even need the degree as…

> or a realtor or a welder

Both of those do require certifications (at least for some types of welding) and for good reasons tied to legal requirements and safety.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#263

Post by ksml »

throwawayoverhe wrote: post #214
Mirioron wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are universities prepared for something like this though? Do they have some kind of pandemic insurance that will cover the costs of the entire student body if the government shuts the university down? Because I can see that being a very costly insurance.

They have endowments. The colleges/universities that aren't managed by complete idiots use those endowments to hedge exactly this sort of risk. There were a lot of articles over the past few years about various teeny tiny colleges investing their entire endowment in funds and yelling from the rooftops that they out-performed Harvard's endowment. The bill is going to come due. Over the next two years, a lot of small c…

In addition to the other replies to this comment, I'd add that the value of endowments has shrunk significantly due to collapses in economic markets.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#265

Post by battery_cowboy »

vorpalhex wrote: post #262
battery_cowboy wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate this, but they'll have to cope, just like those who lost their jobs and those who lost family and friends. It sucks, but the real issue is that there's no social safety net for these types of folks in many places, which makes my first sentence sound kinda uncaring, but there's not many other options. The other major issue is that, for a lot of the students in college, they don't really even need the degree as…

> or a realtor or a welder Both of those do require certifications (at least for some types of welding) and for good reasons tied to legal requirements and safety.

Yes but degrees aren't needed, that's the point. I'm talking about the gatekeeping aspect, specifically, in that part. I know that doesn't hold for every degree or cert, for sure.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#266

Post by pwthornton »

peterwoerner wrote: post #215
0d9eooo wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not taught online, but I have a close colleague who was doing it for years pre-pandemic, and another colleague who did a bit of it and my impressions are the same. My sense is that major universities doing online stuff have video production crews (from Communications etc) and everything is heavily edited and redone. It's more like a television show than anything else. Much more preplanning, and interactions with…

Its not so much that anything is wrong with college, it is that the cost isn't commiserate with the expected payout (for most). Yet we, as a society, push people who are barely adults into a lifetime of debt slavery like sheep to the slaughter.

The expected payout for the average bachelors is huge over a high school diploma. The gap is widening.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#267

Post by FireBeyond »

> Ken McConnellogue, a spokesman for the University of Colorado, said it’s disappointing that people have been so quick to file lawsuits only weeks into the pandemic.

The country - and courts - might be surprised to learn that we've apparently only been dealing with this since mid April.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#268

Post by FireBeyond »

bachmeier wrote: post #192
leetcrew wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you really want to force the restaurant analogy, you could say it's sort of like when the restaurant is having a bad night. the service is really slow and some of the dishes don't come out quite right. if it's just a fluke, a good restaurant will comp most of the meal without you even having to ask. the problem with this analogy is that a restaurant just isn't very similar to a college. it's really important to a…

> when the restaurant is having a bad night A "bad night" because it was hit by a tornado. Your wording implies the universities did something wrong. It's not like they could have done anything differently. They weren't responsible for the pandemic and they were legally obligated to shut down. > I'd say the institution should do at least something to make you whole I'd say it is unreasonable. They're not asking for a…

> They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund.

Is the benefit the college credit (which you seem to imply), or the education? Because they're not getting the same education. Your argument seems to be "well they'll still get credit, so what's the problem?".

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#269

Post by FireBeyond »

bachmeier wrote: post #208
leetcrew wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea whether there's a legal basis for the argument, I'm just stating my opinion on what would be a fair outcome. > They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund. I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the situation, unless you think the entire value of a college education is instruction, grading, and the piece of paper at the end. the school I went to was very much like this: I went to class, go…

There's no doubt that the on campus experience is valuable. "all the benefits" was a bad choice of words. Maybe a better way to say it is that they want to choose which parts they get to pay for (the credits, the material, online interaction with the instructor, grading, homework, exams) but then be refunded for other parts related to the on campus experience. I'd say that's reasonable if and only if the university s…

> I'd say that's reasonable if and only if the university saved money as a result. Not only did they not save money, it cost them more money to shift formats.

That would be part of the reason universities are getting money from the government through this, as compensation for their efforts, and for taking care of students. For all that has cost the school, they've also got a lot less costs (residential utilities, food, campus entertainment).

And business continuity would behoove them to have had _some_ contingency in place. Alas, my partner, who works in university administration, has seen just how little many universities have had, if any, for having to shift to remote learning, partially or completely.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#270

Post by jnwatson »

intended wrote: post #85
gibolt wrote: post #4

As much as I wish it were better, most online courses offered by universities do not come close to the in-person experience. Their real goal/outcome is to increase access. Professors are trained (most at least) to teach in-person and have assignments and curriculums that match. They can't redo that appropriately to be equally effective within a week or two. Few could do it well given over a year doing online only. To…

Education has been disrupted. The disruption taught us that education is more than what we think of when we imagine the word studying. Khan Academy exists, and has existed for a while. The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal. Online education was/is the holy grail of 2000 era layman ideas of education. Free, world class, available at your finger tips, at any time, educational content. Y…

Most people who get in don't indeed finish college.

"The official four-year graduation rate for students attending public colleges and universities is 33.3%. The six-year rate is 57.6%."

Most MOOCs have poor retention because there's no commitment. There's no reason to continue to apply oneself.

I've had a great deal of success with Coursera and a small in-person study group to keep us committed.

I spent 4 hours yesterday on Kahn Academy remembering my calculus so I could help my daughter.

MOOCs are invaluable resources, but those alone are insufficient. Support and study groups are an important adjunct.

*: https://www.cappex.com/articles/blog/government-publishes-gr...

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