Bye, Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Bye, Amazon

#461

Post by esoterica » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:34 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #329

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter it's much easier: the stocks are vested after 5 years, the unspent disposable income is saved somewhere and now and you are ready to leave. Also the turnover of engineers in Amazon is among the highest in the industry and only a few stay beyond 5 years. In comparison, refusing to work for some FAANG takes 10 times more courage for someone out of college and without saving.

Tim himself acknowledged in his message that he’s leaving over a million dollars in unvested RSUs on the table by leaving.

It's a little silly to talk about unvested RSUs as "leaving money on the table" when they are analogous to future unearned salary, which everyone by definition gives up when they quit a job. If you don't have any RSUs but you make $100k a year, and an actuarial table says you can expect to live for 50 more years, then you're theoretically "leaving $5 million on the table" when you quit your job, but no one describes it that way.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#462

Post by supergeek133 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

yters wrote: post #425

supergeek133 wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree, but we, as a society tend to look down more on the low paid people who do this versus the high paid ones.

Exactly, and the high paid thieves are those who can wreck the lives of millions vs the low paid thieves take an infinitesimal bit away from the bottom line of a multi billion dollar company.

Death by a thousand cuts. It is just front of mind.

People "see" the low paid thieves and their impact on themselves and others on a semi regular basis. The once in awhile "white collar crime" you might see if you turn on the news isn't top of mind.

"That guy stole $5 from ME" versus "Wal Mart uses welfare as a way to get corporate welfare and pay their employees less"

One is in the moment, and a purely emotional and potentially traumatizing experience based on circumstance.

One I may not even experience (e.g., I don't work at Wal-Mart).

Re: Bye, Amazon

#463

Post by jldugger » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

ljhsiung wrote: post #398

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter it's much easier: the stocks are vested after 5 years, the unspent disposable income is saved somewhere and now and you are ready to leave. Also the turnover of engineers in Amazon is among the highest in the industry and only a few stay beyond 5 years. In comparison, refusing to work for some FAANG takes 10 times more courage for someone out of college and without saving.

Stock refreshes are relatively common at FAANGs, the quantity of which depends on your performance. Tim, being a distinguished engineer, likely got a lot of RSUs. So while true his initial sign-on RSUs likely vested already, a sizable chunk did not fully vest yet. So yeah I'd wager he still walked from ~1 million.

Indeed, at a steady state of annual refreshers, only something like 25 percent of your grant vests annually. My preferred approach here is to ignore the gross grant total and focus on the annual vesting portion. On that front you're not really walking away from 1 million only 250k? Still a lot for most folks but no different than engineers considering retirement. Presumably at age 64, as a distinguished engineer, Tim has enough cash to skip out on work in perpetuity if he so desires.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#464

Post by gumby » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #375

gumby wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. Agree: People can quit and say what they want. People in high paying jobs can quit and often find an equivalent replacement; perhaps have one lined up before they leave; in such a case the impact is limited. But if you quit on principle and take a public stand on…

He even alludes to it in his post when he mentions that he generally dislikes the toxic culture at Amazon.

Despite having a few friends who like it, by and large “toxic environment” has been the impression I've gotten from most people I know who have worked there, so I’ve never applied.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#465

Post by cbsmith » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #235

bob33212 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warren Buffet's has a famous quote about time being the only valuable thing he has. Once you have enough money to cover food/housing/healthcare/transportation it seems stupid to spend a lot of your time helping an organization that you don't like, even if they are paying you well. What is impressive here is that he make his decision public. Plenty of people have moral issues with their company and just say that they…

This is the challenge with large mortgages and heath care requirements taking away people's moral agency. Maybe that's the idea.

Fortunately Tim is in Canada, where the health care requirements are met by default.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#466

Post by DVassallo » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:36 PM UTC

tinyhouse wrote: post #429

|"May 1st was my last day as a VP and Distinguished Engineer at Amazon Web Services, after FIVE years and five months of rewarding fun" 5.5 years means more than fully vested and probably time for a change anyway...

You're never fully vested. I $650K of unvested AMZN stock when I left after 8.5 years.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#467

Post by treve » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

supergeek133 wrote: post #324

stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

I think this is a two way street. If you've never been involved at a management or ownership level of a business that has "low pay" labor (e.g., food service, warehouse, retail sales). For every 2-3 decent workers there is one that just takes pure advantage of the environment (e.g., stealing product, stealing time, etc). Sometimes this occurs at great cost for a period of time before it is discovered. EDIT: This was…

If you can't afford to pay employees a decent wage, you shouldn't be in business. Minimum wages should be raised and nonviable businesses should adapt or go under.

Amazon is not in this category

Re: Bye, Amazon

#468

Post by supergeek133 » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:37 PM UTC

ianjsikes wrote: post #409

supergeek133 wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was pure anecdote from years spent in retail (Best Buy) and co-owning a pizza restaurant. I'll update it if it helps. A quick google finds a number of stats referencing what I'm talking about, but probably nothing scientific. Here is an example: https://losspreventionmedia.com/theft-by-employees-more-comm... Reliable help in "low skill" jobs (although I don't believe they are low skill) can be notoriously…

And yet wage theft (by employers) seems to be the largest form of theft in the US by far. Is it really a wonder that people would steal / slack off when they are so consistently getting screwed at their workplace? https://www.nelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BrokenLawsRe... https://www.deseret.com/2014/6/24/20543670/wage-theft-how-em...

Yep, the most egregious daily example is Wal-Mart and basically showing their employees how to apply for welfare versus paying them a livable wage. Corporate welfare at its best.

But how does an individual combat that? I personally just don't shop at Wal-Mart...

Re: Bye, Amazon

#469

Post by euix » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

nicoburns wrote: post #153

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

> Very few people would have the courage to walk away from big sums of money purely on principle. On the contrary, bucketloads of people do this all the time. The world would be a better place if more people did.

and many do not advertise it.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#470

Post by [deleted] » Mon, May 04, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

lidHanteyk wrote: post #406

SeeTheTruth wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fear of death due to infection by a pandemic is new. The need for PPE and lack thereof is new. Firing whitleblowers in the face of a pandemic and meeting to smear them (with public proof thanks to a leak) is new. We didn't think Amazon was nice and cuddly - but this is a good point for Tim to exit. Jumping on someone doing a principled thing at personal cost for "not doing it sooner" is so cynical. I think we can…

Sure, but at the same time, it is our civic responsibility as skilled programmers to deliberately starve Amazon of the labor needed to build their oppressive systems. It is not wrong to remind ourselves of that greater responsibility, especially in the context of Amazon being vulnerable to organized labor action today.

[deleted]