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Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

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Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#101

Post by pbourke »

Frost1x wrote: post #68
Traster wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was quite clear, he tried to use the leverage he had without quitting, but at some point you have to draw the line and say "I can't change things from the inside, so either I put up with it or I leave". If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail.

>If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail. I personally think that's overly optimistic. Modern corporate culture structures are toxic to society across the board. Some a bit less, some a bit more. The more leverage an entity feels they have (i.e. power), the more t…

>>If Amazon starts to lose top talent because they can't treat their employees with respect and dignity hopefully it will force them to change, and if it doesn't, hopefully it'll cause them to fail.

>I personally think that's overly optimistic.

You’d be surprised. There are a few dozen people at the Distinguished Engineer / Senior Principal level at Amazon. They have enormous influence on the organization. If more follow Tim’s example it will be felt across the company.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#102

Post by keiferski »

bawana wrote: post #25

Why does big always become evil?

I generally prefer small business, but the ‘big = becomes evil’ phenomenon just might be because of identity centralization. If your city has a hundred bakeries and one of the bakers turns out to be evil, it mostly just reflects back on him. Replace those hundred bakeries with a single large one, though, and suddenly one evil person reflects badly upon the entire organization.

Edit: just a reminder to support local bakeries, because they are usually tastier than big ones. Bad example.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#103

Post by AgloeDreams »

outlace wrote: post #63
bawana wrote: post #25

Why does big always become evil?

Why does everyone assume the actions of the little guy are always morally superior than the actions of the big corporation? I haven't delved into the details of this specific case but this reaction is typical regardless of the facts it seems. The big company is always the evil one and the employees are always little enslaved saints. Edit: Whoops this comment could have been made less controversially - I wish everyone…

I don't think you have to assume little is morally superior to say big becomes evil. When those in power become powerful, by nature they do everything they can to maintain that power. When they were small that might be by making the employees happy, or the like but when they are big they have shareholders to answer to and percentage points to keep up.

In this specific case Amazon immediately fired every single person who whistleblew or attempted to communicate their non-action on Covid-19 in the early days and the early outbreaks in warehouses. This isn't some kind of worker pay disagreement or such, the company literally got people killed.

Every single person they fired was female or a person of color.

The problem with big companies with hundreds of thousands of employees is the general fact that eventually lobbying and shareholder meetings lead to treating people like sheep and robots.

I think there are plenty of great examples of responsible mid-size companies, but nearly every massive company has these stories somewhere and there are plenty small companies guilty of massive missteps but generally not on these kinds of scales, I suspect it's because the ceo of a small joint has to look these people in the eyes on Monday and nobody is squeezing them over the last 2%.

Bezos doesn't have to look anyone in the eye and its much easier to put your underlings at risk and fire people when your boss tells you to do it.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#104

Post by zozbot234 »

billfruit wrote: post #32
bawana wrote: post #25

Why does big always become evil?

In someways small companies have more potential to be evil, because they often fly "under the radar". "We shouldn’t fetishize mom and pop operations. They offer lower wages, skimpier benefits, and inferior labor protections." See: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/01/small-businesses-workers-...

Mom and pop operations are less productive, that's why they have to offer lower wages and charge higher prices, all other things being equal. But that's not the same as being evil to others, and many actively prefer them as places to work for and patronize as customers.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#105

Post by outlace »

modwest wrote: post #92
outlace wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does everyone assume the actions of the little guy are always morally superior than the actions of the big corporation? I haven't delved into the details of this specific case but this reaction is typical regardless of the facts it seems. The big company is always the evil one and the employees are always little enslaved saints. Edit: Whoops this comment could have been made less controversially - I wish everyone…

"everyone" "always" "I haven't read the article but..." "always the evil ones" "always little enslaved saints" Thanks, I just filled out my bingo card edit: Sorry gang but some comments just don't warrant being taken seriously. Especially when using inflammatory, offensive language designed specifically to be maximally confrontational. So you'll excuse me if I take a little pleasure on Monday morning taking the piss…

I actually did read the article.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#106

Post by Mirioron »

Pfhreak wrote: post #49
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #9

The implication that race or gender is involved in the firings is pretty silly.

If the firings disproportionately or systemically impact races or genders, the firings can be racist/sexist -- even if race or gender is not involved in the firing decision. Racism and discrimination are related but separate concepts.

This doesn't follow at all though. Racism and discrimination require intent. If race and sex have noting to do with the firing decision then it's not racist or sexist. It doesn't matter what the outcomes are. You can obviously make the case that if the stats are too biased to one side that there is racism/sexism involved in the decision, but that's a different matter.

If you shut down a factory in China because it doesn't make economic sense anymore then that's not racist, despite everyone that's going to be laid off being Chinese.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#107

Post by burntoutfire »

zozbot234 wrote: post #94
outlace wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does everyone assume the actions of the little guy are always morally superior than the actions of the big corporation? I haven't delved into the details of this specific case but this reaction is typical regardless of the facts it seems. The big company is always the evil one and the employees are always little enslaved saints. Edit: Whoops this comment could have been made less controversially - I wish everyone…

Because the little guy in these situations has nothing to hide. His motives and goals are clear to everyone, as are the constraints he may face in pursuing them. That's never true of something on the scale of Amazon.

How about cases when the little guy is just as big of an asshole as the big guy? There are stories of small business owners in poorer countries employing literal slaves (in XXI century)...

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#108

Post by Zaak »

kmbfjr wrote: post #29
bawana wrote: post #25

Why does big always become evil?

My bet is that it was always evil, no one noticed because they were distracted by the amazing customer focus and service. Google may have touted the "do no evil" matra, but looking back, their plan was always to look over your shoulder. Nothing Google did was ever altruistic, and I think Amazon was and is the same way.

While Larry and Sergei were running Google, the company often (though not necessarily always) chose doing what was right over a more profitable wrong. A specific example was when they discovered the Chinese government was behind a major security breach targeting dissidents, they refused to continue to comply with Chinese censorship requirements.

However, as the founders lost interest in the day-to-day operation of the company, any pretense of being more than just another soulless profit machine was discarded.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#109

Post by mthoms »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #9

The implication that race or gender is involved in the firings is pretty silly.

If the implication was coming from an outsider, then maybe.

But, the implication is coming from someone with an intimate understanding of the company culture and the people who run it.

Re: Amazon VP Resigns, Calls Company ‘Chickenshit’ for Firing Protesting Workers

#110

Post by gassius »

ethanwillis wrote: post #58
bawana wrote: post #25

Why does big always become evil?

"The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race." Ted Kaczynski would roughly say that Big becomes evil because Big means standardization. If you have a large corporation you need to standardize processes in order to be efficient enough to justify your existence. This is directly at odds with individual dignity and autonomy. Specifically see 111. onwards of Industrial Society a…

Not to fail in an ad hominem but I kinda give low value to the thinking of the Unabomber
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