Remember to have some money saved up, and line up a new job first.
At that point, you won't have to face the dilemma of doing the right thing vs. making rent.
Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
11–20 of 52 posts
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#12Stay away.
Ask for a raise.
Start job hunting.
In that particular order.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#13I can't advise you to leave b/c that's just the way sales happens -- you aren't going to escape this sort of thing even if you go to work for a non profit. Non profits often exaggerate the amount of good they do and how important their cause is -- and how efficient they are or are not.
The bottom line is that it's tough to bootstrap a company and sometimes the salespeople will "throw the ball ahead of the runner" a bit.
The morality has to do more with whether or not the founder believes that what he's saying will be true soon enough that telling the customer that info isn't misrepresenting the company.
If you went to work for a big company you'd sit in a cube and not hear any sales conversations, but they'd probably be much more distorted -- at least in a startup everyone can help make the dreams (of the founder and the customers) a reality... there is much more of a team mentality.
When you hear the founder say such things you should be thinking "wow, he really believes that we can do that" and feel motivated by it. It's part of the entrepreneurial psychology. He has you on the team b/c he believes you can make whatever he says true.
If you don't like spirited optimism, I hear the IRS is hiring :)
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#14>What would you do
I would leave. No dilemma there. But I won't judge / advice. There is no absolute morality.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#15It sounds like you know what the right thing to do is. So, why aren't you acting on it?
seconded... you certainly don't need the feedback of strangers to justify your decision... just act on your gut.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#16Reminds me of one startup I worked at, the boss even went as far as putting on funny accents on the phone to make it sound like there were more people. He would even pretend to be someone else and tell whoever was on the line that he was in fact in a meeting/on the other line/with a customer.
And that sort of thing, while a little weird, doesn't really harm anyone. It was when he started putting in ads in the trade press that we did things or had things that we blatantly didn't (and couldn't) that things started to get a bit dodgy. I left shortly afterwards.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#17If the company signs the deal based on these claims the founder made, its called misrepresentation and misrepresentation = fraud. So should something screw up, and they want to get out of the contract they can use that as a basis,or even if they dont feel like paying. If they have proof, they will most likely WIN.
Firstly, i have to ask though was this put in writing or just while talking?
Secondly, there is a difference between almost closing a deal(Customer has show interest and you reassure him with the numbers) and the customer hasnt made a choice and you use the lies to convince him. In the second instance it's fraud.
If it were me, i would leave.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#18If the company signs the deal based on these claims the founder made, its called misrepresentation and misrepresentation = fraud. So should something screw up, and they want to get out of the contract they can use that as a basis,or even if they dont feel like paying. If they have proof, they will most likely WIN. Firstly, i have to ask though was this put in writing or just while talking? Secondly, there is a differ…
let me just clear one thing up
Misrepresentation for financial gain = Fraud
as an example:
I Tell the bank i earn $10,000 when i only earn half that to get a higher loan
or in the case of a company: Reporting higher numbers to investors, reporting high userbases/install bases to convince other customers
Yes its fraud, thats what enron did.
It's a bad sign. And to all the people saying it's ok SHAME ON YOU,
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#19Software is a funny business. I've known guys to run full-page ads for software that didn't even exist yet. The theory goes -- if the orders come in, we'll build it. Some people are naturally prone to exaggeration. Immaturity comes in to this as well -- once you've been around the block a few times you realize that fake posturing is easy for customers to spot. If it's not investment related, it's not criminal. I'd ha…
If he's putting false claims into written advertising or solicitations he's crossing state and federal "truth-in-advertising" laws.
Re: Ask YC: Ethical Question, possible fraud
#20Ever heard of WinFS? A good personal moral compass in such situations is whatever helps you sleep soundly at night. Life is rarely black or white, more shades of grey (can't remember where I read that). Curious to know, what would you have said in the same situation, would you have said we have 2 customers, one office, couple of customers, you would be third if we are lucky and hey guess what you are going to beta te…
Number 2 is kind of abstract. There are a lot of ways to interpret "putting your customer's interest before your company's." You could make the software cheaper, for example, but you probably won't.
I've thought a lot about how far to bend to customers demands the past few weeks as I've been working on a fairly large project geared toward companies that are used to influencing product design and direction. In enterprise sales, when the Vice President of Marketing at a company ready to pay a few million dollars says, "Can I check my data from your website while I'm on my jet?" what are you supposed to say? Sure, we could rig some complex system to download the data for him, but that's a terrible use of our time.
On the other end of the spectrum is Apple's dealings with consumers. Apple very rarely does things people ask for-- I wish I had a card reader on my MacBook Pro, for example, but I don't. They're geniuses at distilling the most useful things that most people will use and then developing them to absurd levels of perfection beyond what the rest of the industry is used to.
I'd much rather build a product with a few amazingly awesome features that help a wide number of people than one with tons of OK features (including the ability for one person to view reports on their private airplane!).
Both of these ends of the spectrum can be argued for putting the customer's interest first.
(sorry for the digression)