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Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

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Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#171

Post by pgcj_poster »

jki275 wrote: post #167
agumonkey wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the place and people (i wasn't very well when I was in college), MOOCs can be better in many metrics. - less anxiety being in IRC than in class - more focused (less distracted by people inviting you, peer pressure) - more communication with other students and teachers - automatic grading systems being very exciting to keep improving solutions rapidly

As a GA Tech student for two years now (GA Tech's OMSCS program is all MOOCS), MOOCS are generally horrible ways to actually teach. -I have no idea why anyone would have anxiety about being in class, I don't think that's a common problem. -There's less focus in online classes because now you have to manage all the different ways you have to communicate with everyone, official and unofficial, in the hopes you can get…

> I have no idea why anyone would have anxiety about being in class, I don't think that's a common problem.

Like 1 in 5 college students[1], I have a diagnosed anxiety disorder. I frequently have anxiety in class, especially before the professor starts talking and is just scanning the room and occasionally making eye contact with me, or if I'm asked to interact with other students.

That said, I still think that MOOCs aren't remotely comparable to real college classes.

[1] pg. 16 - https://www.acha.org/documents/ncha/NCHA-II_Spring_2018_Refe...

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#173

Post by luckylion »

nicolas_t wrote: post #72
luckylion wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's different if you worked in France though, right? From what I understand, the grandes écoles are very similar. It's not so much that you'll get an education that's ten times better, but you'll have a degree from a school that says you've been selected for leadership.

Yes, probably, I mean I come indeed from a Grande école but since I've never actually worked in France, it's never really been asked for. And the few times when ranking was important (visas for Japan and Hong Kong), the fact that it's not well ranked internationally means that I got no exta points. In the end, I do think that degrees matter less than what people think and that it's completely possible to have a good…

I absolutely agree that you can have a good career without having a degree (or a degree from the right school), but you will have a very tough time getting beyond a certain threshold. I understand it's very obvious in France for upper management and public/political higher positions that it's not merit-based. The same is true for most countries, with varying degrees of impact and obviousness.

But if you're not going for that threshold, you'll likely not run into issues. And if you're in niche-careers, it's probably true as well.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#174

Post by bachmeier »

red_admiral wrote: post #58

If I go into a restaurant and order pork, but get served beef, I have a right as a customer to complain. It doesn't matter whether beef is in some way better than pork, or whether other customers are perfectly happy with beef, or whether I eat beef myself at other times. I order pork, I expect pork. If the restaurant can't serve me pork, for example because they've run out, then the right answer is still not to just…

This argument doesn't really work. It appears that the college students want the credits and they want to finish out the semester, but they want a refund of an arbitrary amount of money. If you order pork and they bring out beef, it's reasonable to not pay for the beef if the restaurant ran out of pork, but it's not reasonable to eat the beef (which costs more) and then demand 40% off the price of pork because it's not what you wanted.

There are two critical points to keep in mind: cost of instruction increased, and this was something the schools couldn't control. A refund for the last few weeks of the semester with no credit makes sense (the students can withdraw and get a prorated refund). An arbitrary refund when the students have access to the material and instructors and get the same credits is not reasonable.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#175

Post by throwawayoverhe »

echelon wrote: post #24
skocznymroczny wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this might not be received well by the HN crowd, but I feel like the classes and networking are secondary, the main value of a reputable college is having a reputable college you can put on your résumé.

> having a reputable college you can put on your résumé. At what point will firms rank new grad candidates inversely proportional to the prestige of their university? Prestigious universities equate with more expensive candidates. Many positions probably don't demand skills beyond the ability to write mostly CRUD apps. The pedigree doesn't really matter in that case. All companies have these roles. Somebody needs to…

> At what point will firms rank new grad candidates inversely proportional to the prestige of their university?

Never.

> Prestigious universities equate with more expensive candidates.

But that doesn't mean you rank those people lower. It means you offer them the job at the budgeted salary. If they don't accept the job offer at the salary range you've budgeted for the position, then you move on to the next candidate.

This might make less sense if there's a strong opportunity cost (i.e., missing a candidate because they already accepted a job), but that's not typically the case for new grads.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#176

Post by severine »

intended wrote: post #134
Olreich wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I think it strongly argues for university being highly inefficient compared to optimal education strategies. University cohorts should probably be smaller, with smaller class sizes and more stringent entry requirements to work toward the ideal 1:1 student:teacher ratios. Sure it’s more expensive, but if you get 2 std deviations out of it, that’s huge. For certain gen ed classe…

You are absolutely correct, which is why I keep harping on the Bloom 2 sigma problem. Its an easy way to highlight to readers how significant human 1 on 1 mentoring is to academic outcomes. That immediately makes it clear to people that we dont have the money or people to afford that outcome, and after a few traversals on that ladder, the issue of education being a huge method to minimize the cost to educate people w…

> ...now we need the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, a mentor that customizes information that matches a student.

In case you didn't get the reference: https://proto-knowledge.blogspot.com/2011/11/building-young-...

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#177

Post by ghaff »

wolfgke wrote: post #165
wccrawford wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.

> The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. Can't the respective student stop paying by quitting the university (of course, he will leave without a degree)?

They have presumably already paid for this semester. That's the issue. They paid for one educational experience and environment and it's been switched to one that is presumably lower value in many respects.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#178

Post by 4weekoldroses »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

How much of Harvard and MIT's catalogs are actually online in their entirety? (incl. textual resources, coursework, answers, etc.) IIRC it was more like a few handfuls of introductory courses.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#180

Post by KoftaBob »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

As many have said, the bulk of the value of going to college is in the signaling they're able to provide. You're paying (overpaying in my opinion) for the infrastructure they've put in place to adequately assess your abilities in a way that employers can trust.

Say you pay someone to do an inspection of your home that the gov is requiring before you can sell. Has that inspector taught you anything or made any tangible improvements to your home? No. What they've done is signal to the gov and buyers that your home passes inspections.

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