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Bye, Amazon

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Re: Bye, Amazon

#211

Post by red_admiral »

kharak wrote: post #187
2ion wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's just somebody with FY money in the bank so he can do whatever he wants in a larger scope than others. I'll keep my hat on; this is nothing special in his position.

Excuse me? How many people with FY money do what he did? What he did IS the exception and henceforth noteworthy.

@scollet [below]: he does a prety good job of linking to ground floor worker's narratives in his post - using his increased exposure and prestige to "signal boost" them, as a millenial would say. Or am I reading that wrong?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#212

Post by simonebrunozzi »

nicoburns wrote: post #153
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

> Very few people would have the courage to walk away from big sums of money purely on principle. On the contrary, bucketloads of people do this all the time. The world would be a better place if more people did.

Both you and I are speaking from anecdotal evidence and personal experience.

I don't have a way to give you data about it. My feeling, based on experience and several conversations I had with colleagues and friends over the years, is that this is NOT happening often. But I don't know if this is a general rule, or not.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#213

Post by red_admiral »

chippy wrote: post #131
Infinitesimus wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. It often takes a while for us to internalize and accept how some hard things and maybe he spent years trying to make sense of this problem and finally reached a breaking point.

I really don't see Tim Bray as coming out as an anti capitalist here. That's why this is amusing. To clarify, it's not bad what he did, he is the good guy now. To put him up as an example of anti capitalism in its own right (even discounting the fact that the warehouse workers who were sacked are not) is hilarious. Edits - As most comments in the thread suggest, most people are not seeing this as a form of anti-capit…

Upvoted as I don't see why you deserve the downvotes. We might not agree, but you made a defensible and coherent point.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#214

Post by lazyjones »

Somewhat understandable reaction, but wise? As a VP you should have some influence at Amazon. Even if not, you'd still do more good by speaking out about it internally instead of resigning, thereby harming mostly yourself and apart from HN drama having little effect on the problem. Unless the real problem is that there is no actual reasonable argument against Amazon's actions because the danger is exaggerated and all precautions have been taken, in which case the doubts could have been resolved internally as well... But, his money, his consciousness, his emotions, his decision.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#215

Post by btilly »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #194
btilly wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US laws on libel and defamation are shockingly good. Free speech is woven into our culture and the Constitution. This post is squarely in the center of what is meant to be protected. UK laws are so horrible that the USA passed a law that UK libel judgements are not enforceable here. See https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-10940211 for more. Canada is somewhere between the two. Incidentally the country with the worst libel la…

I'm pretty sure South Korea wins that contest: libel is a criminal offense and truth is not a sufficient defense. https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/fighting-for-jus...

Ouch. You’re right.

Too bad I can no longer edit my comment

Re: Bye, Amazon

#216

Post by tom_mellior »

> Fast-forward to the Covid-19 era. Stories surfaced of unrest in Amazon warehouses, workers raising alarms about being uninformed, unprotected, and frightened. Official statements claimed every possible safety precaution was being taken. Then a worker organizing for better safety conditions was fired, and brutally insensitive remarks appeared in leaked executive meeting notes where the focus was on defending Amazon “talking points”.

Sorry, but none of this is new in "the Covid-19 era". There is a long Wikipedia page dedicated to criticism of Amazon detailing decades of criticism of how Amazon treats its workers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon

Better of Tim to exit late than never, but let's not pretend that until recent firings and this blog post we all thought that Amazon was a nice and cuddly company. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Bray says he started there in December 2014. He must have known at that point what he was getting into. For reference, here's the state of the criticism page at that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_Amaz...

Re: Bye, Amazon

#217

Post by emilfihlman »

>I’m sure it’s a coincidence that every one of them is a person of color, a woman, or both. Right?

And at that point the author lost my respect. Sad, since otherwise he's making good points with a lot of merit, but if he's making that "argument" I don't even want to know what more vocal "activists" were saying.

This comes down purely to cost and slow moving rock on the Amazon side.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#218

Post by [deleted] »

simias wrote: post #130
thelibrarian wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it amusing that people who decry "virtual signalling" seem to be oblivious to the fact that they too are virtue signalling by doing so.

"Virtue signaling" and "white knighting" are infuriating formulas because they can be used to dismiss anybody doing a morally good thing without any argument. Reducing your carbon footprint? Trying to be nice to other people? Taking a moral stance on anything? Somebody tells you that the way you act is pretty bad? Nice try, you virtue-signaler! It's utilitarianism pushed to the limit, only actions matter, ethic and m…

[deleted]

Re: Bye, Amazon

#219

Post by overthemoon »

simias wrote: post #130
thelibrarian wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find it amusing that people who decry "virtual signalling" seem to be oblivious to the fact that they too are virtue signalling by doing so.

"Virtue signaling" and "white knighting" are infuriating formulas because they can be used to dismiss anybody doing a morally good thing without any argument. Reducing your carbon footprint? Trying to be nice to other people? Taking a moral stance on anything? Somebody tells you that the way you act is pretty bad? Nice try, you virtue-signaler! It's utilitarianism pushed to the limit, only actions matter, ethic and m…

Agreed, it is a terrible thoughtless cliche. It purports to see into the mind and heart of the person doing it and smearing the act as disingenuous and therefore void of moral value. Obviously, we all KNOW deep down that they're doing it for bullshit reasons, it's obvious, we can all tell, can't we?

Made worse by the fact that some famous and powerful people are phonies who in fact do things for bullshit reasons, which you can be convinced of by their past behavior. On top of that, doing stuff on the internet for attention is pretty common. People then make the leap to "doing X thing I don't like is virtue signaling". It's not that I think it never happens, people aren't always sincere and I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but the accusation itself is just a baseless smear if it's not accompanied by something corroborating.

We should be skeptical, not oafishly dismissive.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#220

Post by kspacewalk2 »

artsyca wrote: post #139
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

Somewhere between university and the present day we went from being idealistic to realistic to defeatist and the tone of this conversation stinks of pre-covid stereotypes let me guess you enjoy the free coffee and casual culture too much to walk away from a neo-fascist dictatorship with corporate characteristics or maybe you're mortgaged up to your eyeballs Edit: don't you think some liberal leaning corporate behemot…

Just out of curiosity, which neo-fascist dictatorship paying you lots of money did you walk away from? Which has offered you a job? An interview?
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