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Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

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Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#131

Post by intended »

rgblambda wrote: post #125
intended wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education has been disrupted. The disruption taught us that education is more than what we think of when we imagine the word studying. Khan Academy exists, and has existed for a while. The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal. Online education was/is the holy grail of 2000 era layman ideas of education. Free, world class, available at your finger tips, at any time, educational content. Y…

>The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal. I don't think I've ever completed a MOOC. When I get what I want out of it I drop it. Now if I was paying for it or if completion was a requirement for a job or promotion I think I'd be more invested in completing the course.

True, and this one reason among many why MOOC Retention rates are at 3%.

This is one of the reasons that online education will fall behind real world college classes.

Another is whether people learn the same amount.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#132

Post by deegles »

itronitron wrote: post #99
wccrawford wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.

Like if you went to a 'make-your-own-pizza' place and were forced to leave the building by a fire marshal after having placed your pizza, with custom toppings, in the oven.

Also, the pizza cost $25,000.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#133

Post by cblades »

agumonkey wrote: post #108
supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

Depending on the place and people (i wasn't very well when I was in college), MOOCs can be better in many metrics. - less anxiety being in IRC than in class - more focused (less distracted by people inviting you, peer pressure) - more communication with other students and teachers - automatic grading systems being very exciting to keep improving solutions rapidly

You didn't claim they weren't, but I just want to point out how each of those points is very, very subjective. For me:

- I'd much rather be in-person, where I can better gauge what others are communicating and more readily have two-way communication about the material.

- I'm way less focused when on my own computer, on my own time.

- I find I communicate way less purely online than I would in-person.

- Automatic grading sucks, especially for programming, as it can only really test inputs and outputs, and misses a ton of nuance. I want to also know if my code sucks, regardless of it producing the correct output or not.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#134

Post by intended »

Olreich wrote: post #109
intended wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the popular view on HN. I take the opposite stance - being in person makes a huge difference, possibly one not appreciated by the demographics here. People continually reduce the experience to “sitting in a box and ingesting information. But a classroom is much more than that - it’s the ability to interact with other students, to deal with real world issues and practice even basic skills like asking questions…

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I think it strongly argues for university being highly inefficient compared to optimal education strategies. University cohorts should probably be smaller, with smaller class sizes and more stringent entry requirements to work toward the ideal 1:1 student:teacher ratios. Sure it’s more expensive, but if you get 2 std deviations out of it, that’s huge. For certain gen ed classe…

You are absolutely correct, which is why I keep harping on the Bloom 2 sigma problem. Its an easy way to highlight to readers how significant human 1 on 1 mentoring is to academic outcomes.

That immediately makes it clear to people that we dont have the money or people to afford that outcome, and after a few traversals on that ladder, the issue of education being a huge method to minimize the cost to educate people without overloading on number of teachers and cost of HR becomes apparent.

Mentorship is my new educational holy grail today frankly. Gone is the hope of the MOOC, now we need the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, a mentor that customizes information that matches a student.

Fundamentally though people learn through play, thats how humans are designed.

Kids pick up 5000 combinations from playing league of legends, and do stupid number crunching on the fly.

However play is to hard to create, because we don't associate fun with a lot of work.

If we ever solve education, it will be solved by using play, even Mentors must understand fun.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#135

Post by ghaff »

whymauri wrote: post #91
zelos wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams Exactly. Even as a self-taught developer, one of my biggest regrets is how little I appreciated the incredible resources I had available at university and didn't really take advantage of or appreciate.

Also, a lot of classes are essentially impossible online. Intense lab courses, term-long project courses, and time-sensitive experimentation courses are all screwed. The way classes are coping is interesting: 1. For classes requiring user testing or behavioral experiments, assignments are being processed through mechanical turk. 2. The experimental physics lab is changing from a 'choose-your-own-adventure' model of c…

Medium to large lecture classes can probably work pretty well. As can mostly small seminars I would think. Other things are tough or impossible.

For example, I had an undergraduate thesis in my major, which required being physically in a lab and having access to a machine shop. In any case, there are lab/project classes throughout a lot of STEM majors that students aren't going to be able to reasonably finish this semester. I don't know how this is being typically handled with everyone having to drop things ~ 1 month into the semester.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#136

Post by tester3 »

blackrock wrote: post #60

What’s the point of paying for college, if you’re stuck behind a webcam? Yes, you can learn some things, but you can also learn it by just watching YouTube. The whole point of being physically present in college, is to commingle with your peers. Because surely, you’re not going to make friends over Zoom. That’s just pretty damn lame. Of course, you hope to sharpen a few skills, and learn a few more things in the 4 ye…

>What’s the point of paying for college, if you’re stuck behind a webcam?

>Yes, you can learn some things, but you can also learn it by just watching YouTube.

This relies on heavy assumptions.

I recently had a few programming classes with lecturer who has 15 years of experience in industry and a lot of in academia

Not only his lectures are at very good level - best practices, industry standards but also very fresh technology and additionally you have an opportunity to ask questions.

It's not that easy to find this kind of materials on Youtube or even paid services.

Youtube often covers topics briefly, so you have to try to find blogs of an actual experts.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#137

Post by evgen »

madsbuch wrote: post #52

I guess this is a consequence of building an educational system that is for profit and where student pay a (substantiel) part of their tuition. European universities have also closed, yet I still have to hear about any complaints. In fact, it seems like the Corona crisis will boost university applications in Europe - If you can't have your gab year and find work you might as well just study. In the US it seems like w…

In the UK you have almost as many complaints regarding the second-half of the school year evaporating with additional news about the universities themselves starting to panic because international students were their primary source of funding and that looks to be drying up.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#138

Post by [deleted] »

wccrawford wrote: post #90
unishark wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analogy can still go either way. You ate half the meal. Then there they had to kick you out to finish at home with a doggy bag. You're losing out on some ambience, but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved. Note that there are already refunds for at least some of the in-person stuff such as dorms and gym access. So were already in a position of compromise and partial refund. It's just an argument o…

The first half of the meal, the portion they ate, was what they paid for. The meal was suddenly changed halfway through, but there was no option to stop paying. And in this case, the first half of the meal doesn't mean anything without the second half.

[deleted]

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#139

Post by madsbuch »

rufusroflpunch wrote: post #114
madsbuch wrote: post #52

I guess this is a consequence of building an educational system that is for profit and where student pay a (substantiel) part of their tuition. European universities have also closed, yet I still have to hear about any complaints. In fact, it seems like the Corona crisis will boost university applications in Europe - If you can't have your gab year and find work you might as well just study. In the US it seems like w…

Maybe I am reading into it, but it seems like your comment implies this is a flaw in the US educational system versus the European system. I would argue this is an example of the opposite. By having the price hidden from them, the students have removed from them the most important signal to decide whether they are getting something of value.

I am not pointing out a flaw, merely a perceived difference.

Personally I don't really buy into the monetization-of-every-aspect-of-life. I did not take my education for its monetary value and I am more than happy to have been removed from that concern. That is a privilege I am more than happy to pay forward to current students.

Even if I had bought into that way of thinking and paid tuition up front, I am not sure how I could have used that information to decide on a major? Under all circumstances I would put myself in position for the highest paid role, regardless of tuition?

Anyways, this is a complex topic and one of the most fundamental differences in the European and American way of thinking. I don't see any right or wrong, just differences.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#140

Post by madsbuch »

evgen wrote: post #137
madsbuch wrote: post #52

I guess this is a consequence of building an educational system that is for profit and where student pay a (substantiel) part of their tuition. European universities have also closed, yet I still have to hear about any complaints. In fact, it seems like the Corona crisis will boost university applications in Europe - If you can't have your gab year and find work you might as well just study. In the US it seems like w…

In the UK you have almost as many complaints regarding the second-half of the school year evaporating with additional news about the universities themselves starting to panic because international students were their primary source of funding and that looks to be drying up.

You got me on an imprecision. UK is definitely also an Anglo cultural country in this regard. I reckon they also pay most of their own tuition?
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