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Bye, Amazon

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Re: Bye, Amazon

#161

Post by scarface74 »

mercury_craze wrote: post #106
enitihas wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the mythical company treating their low-skill workers far better than Amazon? Does the rest of big tech even employ their non professionals directly? Which of big tech directly employ their janitors and treat them much better than Amazon warehouse workers? Which of big non tech company does this? >its refusal to pay tax. What do you even mean by this? Companies can't refuse to pay tax. They have to pay tax a…

Ignoring the bad faith questioning, I dont have to provide a gold standard in order to criticise Amazon. Everything I've said is extremely well documented.

The only reason that the other big tech companies don’t get criticized for the way that their low wage “employees” are treated, is because they are subcontracted/outsourced either locally or in manufacturing plants in China.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#162

Post by paulintrognon »

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #107
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

> it takes huge balls to do something like this. > The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth > Very few people would have the courage to walk away from big sums of money purely on principle. A good number of engineers refuse to even interview with FAANGs and other nasty companies on principle and they don't get any public praise.

It's one thing to refuse interviews, and another thing to quit a job you love and invested 5 years of your life and that paysvery well.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#163

Post by flurdy »

reitzensteinm wrote: post #18
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

I think you can trust that it's the real reason, because either way it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig like this. No large company keeps its hands completely clean. Defense contracts, Chinese censorship, exploiting addiction, anticompetitive behaviour, sexism, the list goes on. Having a public figure at your company that's willing to martyr themselves to push the knife in just a little deeper when yo…

> it's going to make him radioactive for the next gig

No. A couple of more questionable companies may choose to stay away, but the majority of companies would love to have Tim on board. Even if just for a few years or part-time.

Most employees and owners think of themselves and their company as good so will not be concerned with having a man of moral as their employee. Not that they all are 100% "good" but most think they are.

Also, Tim Bray is well respected and most companies know they can gain a lot by him helping out, and they know that.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#164

Post by scarface74 »

lftherios wrote: post #156

We need more Tims in the tech world. From a place for renegades, the valley has quickly become a safe place for "yes men", that all they do is to obey to their corporate overlords.

It’s easy to take a moral stand when you have millions and are close to retirement.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#165

Post by _ta_2323221 »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #2

> I quit in dismay at Amazon firing whistleblowers Assuming this is the real true reason (I would trust Tim, but you never know, so just being explicit here), it takes huge balls to do something like this. The economic loss has to be somewhat taken in relation to your total wealth (e.g. if you lose $1M by quitting but you already have $10M+ in the bank, it's not as hard as if you had zero in the bank), but still... V…

So as an already rich person he forewent becoming slightly richer after realizing his work supported an exploitative system that happily puts low-level employees at risk for the financial benefit of the company? A true hero indeed.

Sorry for being slightly sarcastic here, but Amazon has a long history of treating its warehouse workers badly, that behavior didn't start with Covid-19. I find it a bit hypocritical therefore to become rich on the back of such a system and then, from a comfortable position of privilege and wealth, grandly declare that you will no longer partake in it. I realize he worked for AWS but it still supports the same company and provides the infrastructure they surveil and control their workers with.

I think who deserves more credit here are the workers that protested their treatment, which are often paid only slightly over minimum wage and don't have any savings that they can live off before landing another high-paying job.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#166

Post by btilly »

toyg wrote: post #100
nivenkos wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also takes huge balls to publish an article about it publicly (rather than just resigning quietly). I'd be worried about being sued for defamation, etc.

He's Canadian and lives in Canada. Canadian laws on libel and defamation might be less oppressive than US ones (hopefully they're not as bad as in the UK).

US laws on libel and defamation are shockingly good. Free speech is woven into our culture and the Constitution. This post is squarely in the center of what is meant to be protected.

UK laws are so horrible that the USA passed a law that UK libel judgements are not enforceable here. See https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-10940211 for more.

Canada is somewhere between the two.

Incidentally the country with the worst libel laws in the world is Australia.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#167

Post by throwaway55554 »

schnischna wrote: post #33
stupidcar wrote: post #20

> At the end of the day, it’s all about power balances. The warehouse workers are weak and getting weaker... Whenever I speak to someone working in a "low-skilled" job, I'm always astonished and embarrassed by how different their work environment sounds to the kind of offices I work in. There seems to be a consistent theme of employees being treated with suspicion, condescension and outright hostility. This gets to t…

That's why people work hard to acquire skills, to be able to work in better jobs. I have never run a warehouse, but I suspect that many of the strange seeming rules are in place because people otherwise try to exploit the system (like getting paid for smoking on the toilet for hours on end). It may seem inhumane, but perhaps it makes it possible to give people jobs who don't deserve automatic trust. Such people exist…

> I have never run a warehouse,

You don't know...

> ... but I suspect that many of the strange seeming rules are in place because people otherwise try to exploit the system (like getting paid for smoking on the toilet for hours on end). It may seem inhumane, but perhaps it makes it possible to give people jobs who don't deserve automatic trust. Such people exist, unfortunately.

... but you're assuming low wage workers cannot be trusted and therefore treated humanely.

I think these biases are the issue being discussed.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#168

Post by Cthulhu_ »

globular-toast wrote: post #123
ianleeclark wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd suggest working with or managing a place with low-skilled people. They of course aren't all like that but it seems it attracts low-motivation, low-effort, or low-caring Pay low wage, get low motivation. No one's going to bust their ass over a mcgriddle for minimum wage.

Give an inch and they take a mile. You could pay a McDonalds worker all you like and he'll still just try to get away with doing less work.

It really depends on the person; for a lot of McJobs, the people doing them never really pursued the job; they wanted / needed A job, any job. They work for money, not for love of the job.

I mean you can learn to love a job, but that kind of loyalty has to be earned - by good pay, working conditions, career opportunities, and being valued.

But there's too many jobs now - Amazon warehouse employee being one of them - where you are a number in a system, and very much replaceable.

Bring back good jobs. Restaurant worker is not a bad job, but it's underpaid and unvalued.

Re: Bye, Amazon

#169

Post by globular-toast »

ianleeclark wrote: post #133
globular-toast wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give an inch and they take a mile. You could pay a McDonalds worker all you like and he'll still just try to get away with doing less work.

It's good were on the same page: your employees will be motivated to further their work-related skills and efficiency, thus doing less work. My deployment process at work used to require a ton of work, but I spent a few afternoons to automate it and now I get to do much less work.

> My deployment process at work used to require a ton of work, but I spent a few afternoons to automate it and now I get to do much less work.

Clearly you're just like the majority of HN readership: living in a bubble a million miles away from what is reality for very large swathes of the population. Do you truthfully believe that someone flipping burgers in Burger King is capable of inventing machines and automating processes, but they refuse to do it because they don't get paid enough? Do you not see how absurd that sounds?

Re: Bye, Amazon

#170

Post by dunnevens »

globular-toast wrote: post #123
ianleeclark wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd suggest working with or managing a place with low-skilled people. They of course aren't all like that but it seems it attracts low-motivation, low-effort, or low-caring Pay low wage, get low motivation. No one's going to bust their ass over a mcgriddle for minimum wage.

Give an inch and they take a mile. You could pay a McDonalds worker all you like and he'll still just try to get away with doing less work.

Many people, maybe most, take some pride in their work. You pay people decently, give them trust, and treat them like adults, most of them will give good-to-great effort towards what they do. If you approach them with the attitude you currently have, then your prophecy becomes self-fulfilling.
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