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Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

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Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#101

Post by eternauta3k »

tluyben2 wrote: post #73
yodsanklai wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. Besides, the actual lectures are only the tip of the iceberg. If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams. You also have tutors and professors that supervise, pressure, grade you. You work in collaboration…

I did not understand this in the first 2 years of uni; I was in a very easy going high school before uni (this had something to do with my grades as well) as in, I did not have to attend classes, so I was used to just going to the exams. Which was great because I could make money writing software while others were sleeping in class. When I went to uni I just continued that pattern; it alienated me from my peers and a…

Small classes are the best. I had an intro to the Standard Model class which had 4 students and the teacher... possibly the most enjoyable class I've had. There's no other occasion where a teacher will dedicate so much time to you.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#103

Post by furyg3 »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

For me, university was a bit more about direction-finding and serendipity. Few places can expose you to very different things in both a structured and unstructured way as college.

When I started university I was a returning student with a budding tech career. I promised myself I would get a degree, but I wasn't totally sure what benefit it would be. I thought I already had the tech skills needed to do what I wanted to do.

While taking some required political science classes I discovered the world of development cooperation. I did a bit of traveling. I decided to use my time at a 4-year to explore the world of NGOs and other large-scale initiatives. I did a study-abroad project to do some free tech work for a global nonprofit. I fell in love with a new city. I did a short masters to further my knowledge, and also see if it would be possible to combine my tech background and this new world. It was, so I did.

It's hard to know if something similar would have happened without that experience. It's hard to put a dollar amount on it, since I a) paid for my own education and b) probably earn less now that I've changed directions than I would if I hadn't. But I'm so incredibly glad I did. I also don't know how to compare this story to the many stories of people who graduate with 80k in debt and can't find a job in field in which they studied.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#104

Post by xenonite »

bandwitch wrote: post #56
pr0duktiv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, at least speaking for my uni (ETH Zurich), lots of grad students from Asia come here for cheap tuition & good PhD salaries, but almost all Chinese grad students I asked want to go back to China afterwards. Ideally we would keep talented people here instead of paying for their education with taxes and have them go back afterwards.

1) This is anecdotal evidence but as far as I know it's difficult for non-EU people to get a work permit in Switzerland. I know quite a few students that completed the CS Master in ETHZ and that are from Egypt or China, etc. that could not get a job in Switzerland because it was hard to get a permit. Similar for Indian students that did their ETH Master in mechanical engineering, etc. All the students that I know wan…

To point 2): the EU research programs are co-financed by Switzerland. Otherwise, Switzerland wouldn't be allowed to participate in these programs. Hence, the EU research grants are still Swiss tax money in one or another way.

5) There are scholarships for young Chinese scholars that are co-financed by the ETHZ and the China Scholarship Council: https://ethz.ch/en/the-eth-zurich/global/eth-global-news-eve...

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#105

Post by watwut »

swiley wrote: post #19
gibolt wrote: post #4

As much as I wish it were better, most online courses offered by universities do not come close to the in-person experience. Their real goal/outcome is to increase access. Professors are trained (most at least) to teach in-person and have assignments and curriculums that match. They can't redo that appropriately to be equally effective within a week or two. Few could do it well given over a year doing online only. To…

Why was this downvoted? I failed a class and took the online version once so I got to see both sides. The online version had: 1) lots of busywork for the sake of busywork (to make up for attendance?) 2) much poorer instruction. Like everything felt like it was written by someone (really a group of people) who didn’t understand the subject very well, which was strange because the in person class was taught by a DR. wi…

It was downvoted, because many people here want in person classes to be useless waste of time. They don't want to hear they are better then online. That is mostly due to high price of price of us college.

But imo, content issues are fixable, it just takes way more time. Good online courses with good content and good exercises will become more common.

What will be harder is to simulate the social effects and mutual communication, that will be fixable too in time. That will however require also changes outside of school - people will have to learn how to find friendships and communities without institutional support of school.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#107

Post by intended »

jimhefferon wrote: post #97
intended wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education has been disrupted. The disruption taught us that education is more than what we think of when we imagine the word studying. Khan Academy exists, and has existed for a while. The MOOC rush is over. We know the organic retention rates are abysmal. Online education was/is the holy grail of 2000 era layman ideas of education. Free, world class, available at your finger tips, at any time, educational content. Y…

I went from lurking on HN to joining during the "MOOC rush" exactly because people did not seem to get that for the broad student population, online is nowhere near as useful as in person. While there are some percentage of people who have the motivation and skills to get out of online systems everything they would get out of in-class, the percentage is small. For example, when I am teaching a class, it is a dynamic…

Yes, this doesn't address the article.

Conversations here usually shift from the article to some variant of "disrupt education" and college is signalling.

I find Bloom's 2 Sigma problem to be illustrative of the extent to which online learning is a loss to students. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem

Studying in person has significantly different results.

The students are askign for partial refunds for tuition, not just room and board. I think this is a fair ask, and should be recompensed in some way or the other.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#108

Post by agumonkey »

supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

Depending on the place and people (i wasn't very well when I was in college), MOOCs can be better in many metrics.

    - less anxiety being in IRC than in class
    - more focused (less distracted by people inviting you, peer pressure)
    - more communication with other students and teachers
    - automatic grading systems being very exciting to keep improving solutions rapidly

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#109

Post by Olreich »

intended wrote: post #80
skocznymroczny wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this might not be received well by the HN crowd, but I feel like the classes and networking are secondary, the main value of a reputable college is having a reputable college you can put on your résumé.

This is the popular view on HN. I take the opposite stance - being in person makes a huge difference, possibly one not appreciated by the demographics here. People continually reduce the experience to “sitting in a box and ingesting information. But a classroom is much more than that - it’s the ability to interact with other students, to deal with real world issues and practice even basic skills like asking questions…

I don’t disagree with anything you said. I think it strongly argues for university being highly inefficient compared to optimal education strategies. University cohorts should probably be smaller, with smaller class sizes and more stringent entry requirements to work toward the ideal 1:1 student:teacher ratios. Sure it’s more expensive, but if you get 2 std deviations out of it, that’s huge.

For certain gen ed classes, maybe have the whole cohort in a single class, not for lectures or exams, but for discussion and collaboration. Make those courses fully project based and assign them uniformly across degree boundaries.

Right now, graduate level courses and prestigious institutions are the only ones even trying to offer a higher education. The majority of universities at this point are paper mills, rushing hundreds or thousands of students through programs without most of the benefits you described. It’s a system optimized for making money or university survival, rather than student achievement or societal benefit.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#110

Post by pr0duktiv »

rtytrryu wrote: post #100
pr0duktiv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, at least speaking for my uni (ETH Zurich), lots of grad students from Asia come here for cheap tuition & good PhD salaries, but almost all Chinese grad students I asked want to go back to China afterwards. Ideally we would keep talented people here instead of paying for their education with taxes and have them go back afterwards.

You are aware of the fact that at most ~8000 non-EEA people can get a work visa in Switzerland every year? This includes what would be called EB-1 visas in the US. A CS PhD graduate with no work experience has zero chance at passing the legal requirements. There are almost no Asian people at Google Zurich.

I actually wasn't aware (I am not Swiss myself but apparently it was easy to get a permit as a EU citizen). Thanks for the info!
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