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Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

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Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#71

Post by unishark »

red_admiral wrote: post #58

If I go into a restaurant and order pork, but get served beef, I have a right as a customer to complain. It doesn't matter whether beef is in some way better than pork, or whether other customers are perfectly happy with beef, or whether I eat beef myself at other times. I order pork, I expect pork. If the restaurant can't serve me pork, for example because they've run out, then the right answer is still not to just…

This analogy can still go either way. You ate half the meal. Then there they had to kick you out to finish at home with a doggy bag. You're losing out on some ambience, but the thing you showed up to achieve will be achieved.

Note that there are already refunds for at least some of the in-person stuff such as dorms and gym access. So were already in a position of compromise and partial refund. It's just an argument of what that number should be.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#72

Post by nicolas_t »

luckylion wrote: post #36
nicolas_t wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that a lot but I did get a degree from a reputable college in my home country (one of the best in France for my subject matter), yet I've only worked outside of France for my entire professional life and pretty much no French colleges are well ranked on international rankings (mostly because the rankings are biased towards much bigger institutions). And, well, the fact that it is isn't ranked well on any o…

It's different if you worked in France though, right? From what I understand, the grandes écoles are very similar. It's not so much that you'll get an education that's ten times better, but you'll have a degree from a school that says you've been selected for leadership.

Yes, probably, I mean I come indeed from a Grande école but since I've never actually worked in France, it's never really been asked for. And the few times when ranking was important (visas for Japan and Hong Kong), the fact that it's not well ranked internationally means that I got no exta points.

In the end, I do think that degrees matter less than what people think and that it's completely possible to have a good career without the school name or university name having much of an influence (obviously it's anecdotical and probably depends on the field). I do strongly believe that being saddled with lifelong student loans is probably more detrimental than the positive aspects of a degree in most cases (maybe with the exception of lawyers but the only those who can cope with the lifestyle)

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#73

Post by tluyben2 »

yodsanklai wrote: post #59
supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

> well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. Besides, the actual lectures are only the tip of the iceberg. If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams. You also have tutors and professors that supervise, pressure, grade you. You work in collaboration…

I did not understand this in the first 2 years of uni; I was in a very easy going high school before uni (this had something to do with my grades as well) as in, I did not have to attend classes, so I was used to just going to the exams. Which was great because I could make money writing software while others were sleeping in class. When I went to uni I just continued that pattern; it alienated me from my peers and as a result I did not like. Until (around 2 years in) I got bored and picked a graduate course (kolmogorov complexity) which could not be completed without attending; it was excellent; very small group (6) and the prof. That changed my ideas a bit ; I still wouldn't go to the auditorium stuff (I have/had (ex death metal band gitarist...) tinnitus; I cannot hear anything in full rooms with people whispering and sound echo-ing anyway, so what's the point). Well recommended; going to those gave me businesspartners + colleagues + funding for my first 'real' company as well.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#74

Post by [deleted] »

yodsanklai wrote: post #59
supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

> well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? You can put on you resume that you were accepted in a selective program, and that you were able to complete it. Besides, the actual lectures are only the tip of the iceberg. If you attend in person, you have to do tons of assignments, labs, exams. You also have tutors and professors that supervise, pressure, grade you. You work in collaboration…

[deleted]

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#75

Post by cat199 »

supernova87a wrote: post #50
bko wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bryan Kaplan argues that the majority of the value of a reputable college is signaling. > Suppose your law firm wants a summer associate. A law student with a doctorate in philosophy from Stanford applies. What do you infer? The applicant is probably brilliant, diligent, and willing to tolerate serious boredom. If you’re looking for that kind of worker—and what employer isn’t?—you’ll make an offer, knowing full well…

This is very true! I believe (don't have a good reference) that companies in the past had more incentive and means to cultivate or train people on the job, and thus, a formal signal of education wasn't as important. (and until 1950s(?), wasn't as available to many) I seem to observe that now many companies generally want to pick the already-developed crop of people who fit the bill to a T, have had education or previ…

> Maybe it's due to the increasing cost of hiring people

... perhaps put another way, the 'professionalization' of HR?

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#76

Post by bko »

red_admiral wrote: post #62
bko wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bryan Kaplan argues that the majority of the value of a reputable college is signaling. > Suppose your law firm wants a summer associate. A law student with a doctorate in philosophy from Stanford applies. What do you infer? The applicant is probably brilliant, diligent, and willing to tolerate serious boredom. If you’re looking for that kind of worker—and what employer isn’t?—you’ll make an offer, knowing full well…

I guess there's a case that someone who got an online degree, even from a reputable university, doesn't allow you to draw the same inferences quite as strongly?

That's what I gather. Colleges in the US have always been a bit of a gatekeeper. If its too easily accessible to students (e.g. lower costs, distance learning, ability to work while attending, etc), then the signal is weaker since more people finish college. It's kind of like an expensive bar charging a lot for drinks. The high price ensures a certain clientele.

I think that ties in to the proliferation of higher degrees, where college is not a strong enough signal so students go on to receive higher degrees that signal more time, money and investment has been spent

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#77

Post by isoprophlex »

This is what you get in a litigious society where the "free market" sets tuition prices. Of course students are pissed off at not getting the college experience anymore, given how expensive some of those schools are.

What will be even more fun is watching the house of cards fall apart once the lockdowns extend into the new year and international students stay home. Now there's a cash drain no university can cope with.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#78

Post by peteri »

tetris11 wrote: post #69
jmspring wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horseshit. The instructor has a serious impact on how the material is presented. I had transform mathematics from David Huffman of Huffman coding fame at the same time I had a similar physics math course. Both got to the same end, but I only passed both because of the approach and the notes I had from Huffman. Everyone learns differently and that situation where a professor can convey things on a way that clicks isn’…

You bring up David Huffman, but how many Huffman's and Feynman's are there out there? Many postdocs who teach are just beginning their academic careers and are juggling running their analyses and creating their profiles that will bring them fame, against their less rewarding teaching duties. My academic has peaked, so I put more of myself into teaching and training and often find it rewarding when I interact freely w…

There are enough of them, to be honest I passed my degree by the skin of my teeth because I'd spent a year out in industry and found some of it a bit too academic.

I do still however fondly remember my CS101 course with Richard Bornat (who I thought was an excellent lecturer) and wish I'd taken more interest in the lambda calculus elements of the curriculum (we had Peter Landin as head of department) but at the point in time I was heading more down a C / embedded systems / ASIC path.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#79

Post by addicted »

bko wrote: post #32
skocznymroczny wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this might not be received well by the HN crowd, but I feel like the classes and networking are secondary, the main value of a reputable college is having a reputable college you can put on your résumé.

Bryan Kaplan argues that the majority of the value of a reputable college is signaling. > Suppose your law firm wants a summer associate. A law student with a doctorate in philosophy from Stanford applies. What do you infer? The applicant is probably brilliant, diligent, and willing to tolerate serious boredom. If you’re looking for that kind of worker—and what employer isn’t?—you’ll make an offer, knowing full well…

Fundamentally attending college has an implied understanding of completing college. That almost completely explains the non linear gains from graduating.

It’s similar to closing a house sale. The money earned by brokers who get the buyer to sign the contract is exponentially more than the money earned by the brokers who only get 90% of the way there.

That doesn’t mean that the value of the initial 90% of the work is 0.

Of course, this is an extreme example for illustration purposes, because real estate is a step function where the returns go from 0 to 100 at a single point.

The exponentially higher earnings of grads can similarly be explained as a step function where earnings go from 50 to 100 after a certain event. And it’s not even that surprising, because the event in question is completing the thing that you actually stepped out to do.

Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds

#80

Post by intended »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #11
supernova87a wrote: post #2

I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…

I know this might not be received well by the HN crowd, but I feel like the classes and networking are secondary, the main value of a reputable college is having a reputable college you can put on your résumé.

This is the popular view on HN.

I take the opposite stance - being in person makes a huge difference, possibly one not appreciated by the demographics here.

People continually reduce the experience to “sitting in a box and ingesting information.

But a classroom is much more than that - it’s the ability to interact with other students, to deal with real world issues and practice even basic skills like asking questions.

It’s chances to interact in larger groups.

It’s resources which can’t be shared online at all (libraries, information terminals, printers.)

There are also people who depend on interacting with people to process ideas.

All of this modulated by the degree.

If you are doing some courses, you very much depend on interacting with people - doing a negotiations module online is very different from an in person class to pick an example.

And fundamentally- human brains on average are designed to work with people.

Mine isn’t, and being at home and studying isn’t a bad deal- but i would cease being objective if I didn’t recognize that there are many ancillary and direct benefits to studying in college, and for some people in person studying is the only way they can achieve it.

Finally I present to the people here Blooms 2 Sigma problem.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom's_2_sigma_problem

People sorely sorely underestimate what “education” is actually about.

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