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YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

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Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hold this absolutest view of free speech, does that mean you don't believe that fraud should be a crime? I am allowed to just blatantly lie about anything under the cover of free speech, right? What about libel or slander? Can I say that brenden2 is a murderer, and make a website with photoshopped pictures of you killing people? Free speech has limits, and telling blatant lies meant to mislead people is one of…

Uhhh... fraud has legal definition, as does libel - these are _civil_ issues not _criminal_. That being said, the right to actually say the words is still protected and nobody is allowed to take that right away.

He can still say what he wants. Constitutional law is pretty clear that you can say what you want, but you do not necessarily have a right to how you get to say it.

Newspapers are not required to publish every single letter they get. In the same vein, Youtube has no legal obligations to anybody to let them on their platform.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe in shining a light on them I hear this a lot. Light is the best disinfectant. What evidence do you have for this? I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. However, I have repeatedly seen the opposite: Sharing bad ideas increases their audience, increases ignorance, hate, fear, and human suffering. You're looking at an article describing th…

> What evidence do you have for this? I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. There is a significant amount of evidence for it. For example, one could measure the effects of showing people fact-checks, and it has been demonstrated that it does indeed work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-checking#Effects And there are countless ideas that have die…

Most of those ideas didn't die out because one day people found out about them, and then we put an end to them.

Most of them _everyone_ knew about for thousands, or even tens of thousands of years, why didn't this "sunlight" disinfect them?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#323
I'm going to paste here something I wrote a while ago. This is an technological thought experiment and an allegory for fake news and modern propaganda. I use a technological hypothetical to remove the question of if people have any agency in falling for it and the question of if it is necessary to put up with fake news as a form of free speech. With those two questions settled in the premise, we can think clearly about the core issue of the threat of effective propaganda to democracy.

Suppose neuroscientists and neural network researchers found an adversarial image which worked on humans. Not all humans, but at least 15% of them. The technology is developed such that by including a specially crafted banner ad image next to an article you could put an arbitrary thought in the persons mind. This opens up a very serious hack in a democracy. The technology is hard to build, but a nation state actor like China or Russia could easily replicate the technology themselves and use these banner ad images to sway elections. Like a psychological atom bomb, it is just a matter of time before every major player has it. 15% of the population is larger than the margin on nearly every election ever. A democracy which wants to survive only has two choices:

1. Criminalize the adversarial images and censor them from the web. Congrats. You are now in an arms race with one side making better adversarial image detectors and the other making better hidden adversarial images. In the mean time you've built an insanely good machine learning based censorship apparatus which sits on top of all internet traffic. Eventually the technology gets to a point where the cognitive basilisk isn't obvious to the unaffected and people are worried that some images are being censored for their substance. The adversaries intentionally hide the patches in posts / ads about wedge issues like guns or abortion so that taking it down looks like political censorship. While everyone agrees censoring the thought breaking images is necessary, people are rightfully scared about this apparatus being abused.

Maybe the cognitive basilisks are de facto censored in the sense of being de-platformed by the media (both traditional and social variants). Maybe they are state-capitalism censored in the sense of de-platforming under threat of regulation if they aren't. Maybe we go full China with it and have a top level federal internet censor. The only real difference between these mechanisms is the technical issue of legality. For our purposes the implementation does not matter.

2. Don't let people in the 15% vote. People are again rightfully scared that it could easily expand beyond 15%. A very small, very educated, very detached from the average class of people (neuroscientists) is now trusted to decide who gets to vote. All of the 15% (and quite a few in the 85%) are suspicious of them abusing this power to forward their personal political preferences. Disenfranchising people based on inherited neurological traits is extremely contentious. The question of if it is the right thing to do becomes the defining social issue of a generation.

A political fissure opens up. Some people prefer option 1 because they don't consider the adversarial patches to be "speech" and thus don't think there's a free speech risk in censoring them. Some people prefer option 2 because they don't think it is possible to win the arms race in the first case and so long as we don't let the disenfranchisement expand beyond 15% the sin is forgivable. At the very least they think option 2 is a less slippery slope than option 1. Some people like option 1 and 2 at the same time because just do whatever it takes to fix the problem as fast as possible. The people in the 15% think the cognitive basilisks are just a made up conspiracy by the elites. Of course they think this because the cognitive basilisks told them so.

Then comes the disingenuous part of the fissure. Some people like option 2 but their unstated reason is because they looked at how the 15% currently votes and they think disenfranchisement will finally lead to their political party winning. Some people secretly want to keep the exploit in place because their political party happened to benefit from interference in the last election. They don't actually have a solution but instead constantly remind you how risky and undemocratic the two options are and insist we do neither. None of the disingenuous advocates are ever moved by any arguments because their purported beliefs were always just a fig leaf over their unstated wants.

The debate over how to deal with this technology takes on an impassioned, repugnant, culture-war tone that we have all grown to recognize by now. What happens next I don't know.

What I am proposing is that if cognitive basilisk's exist then there is a contradiction of wants within Democracy. You must pick at most 2:

-Everyone gets to vote. -Nothing is ever censored. -The internet has no borders.

The only remaining question is do fake news and AstroTurfing bots count as cognitive basilisks?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#324
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cant have it both ways. Either youtube is relevant and important in the public discourse and you agree with them there is a risk that vast portions of the population will be misled by those videos , or Youtube is an incosequential player so it does not matter what publishes. If you agree with the second point you should not care what it is published there, the same reason you dont care about the contents of the "…

But I do have it both ways. Youtube is a large provider, which is why I'm glad it's kicking off bullshit. But it's far from the only provider: without Youtube you still have print, radio, TV, going outside with a megaphone, going door to door with pamphlets, and the entire rest of the internet .

So you are OK if tomorrow Youtube, Twitter and Facebook decide tomorrow to erase any mention of Snowden,Chomsky and Assange because it is "bullshit". Because if so, that would be a nasty world. I do not want to live in that world. Give me Icke on Youtube any time of the day. I wont watch it and I wont be arrogant enough to believe it will "wash the brains" of other adults.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What evidence do you have for this? I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. There is a significant amount of evidence for it. For example, one could measure the effects of showing people fact-checks, and it has been demonstrated that it does indeed work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact-checking#Effects And there are countless ideas that have die…

Most of those ideas didn't die out because one day people found out about them, and then we put an end to them. Most of them _everyone_ knew about for thousands, or even tens of thousands of years, why didn't this "sunlight" disinfect them?

Because "sunlight" includes the norms of a free and intellectually-open society, which didn't develop until well after those thousands of years. Censorship itself is not even that bad merely due to how it might deal with the YouTube fruitcake du jour; it's really, really bad because it's openly destructive of these hard-gained shared norms, in so many ways.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#326

I very strongly feel that we should be very careful to avoid adopting a legalistic attitude towards freedom of speech. That is, I am opposed to the argument that private corporations are not bound by the first amendment, and therefore it's okay for them to suppress content. I agree that they're not bound by the first amendment (I don't claim to understand the nuances of the "platform" laws so I won't address that), b…

At small groups shinning light on falsehoods does help, at the scale of internet where 8 billion people are interconnected on social networks is not working at all, I would like to see research proving otherwise but it's as the old saying goes: A lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can even get its boots on.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#327
post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Galileo didn't deliver spittle-flecked rants either. He carefully gathered evidence and wrote it up, and his ideas gained acceptance by peer review.

Let's have a word about gay rights then. Once upon a time a pride parade full of rainbow hair dye and BDSM leather and face paint and drag queens and hairy-chested shirtless men would have been right next to your "spittle-flecked rants" in the proper gentleman's book of ways not to get your message out, but I wouldn't want to be the one to say that they should have been censored over it. Not everybody is a traditiona…

But that's not actually how it worked out. Gay marriage didn't go from an unpopular stance to a popular one throughout the 2000s by displays like this. If anything, they were used as ammunition by people strongly against gay marriage in order to slow the change in public opinion.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those ideas didn't die out because one day people found out about them, and then we put an end to them. Most of them _everyone_ knew about for thousands, or even tens of thousands of years, why didn't this "sunlight" disinfect them?

Because "sunlight" includes the norms of a free and intellectually-open society, which didn't develop until well after those thousands of years. Censorship itself is not even that bad merely due to how it might deal with the YouTube fruitcake du jour; it's really , really bad because it's openly destructive of these hard-gained shared norms, in so many ways.

Maybe, but the argument is that mere public existence of an idea effectively promotes correct ideas and demotes incorrect ideas.

That is absolutely not in evidence.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#329
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's have a word about gay rights then. Once upon a time a pride parade full of rainbow hair dye and BDSM leather and face paint and drag queens and hairy-chested shirtless men would have been right next to your "spittle-flecked rants" in the proper gentleman's book of ways not to get your message out, but I wouldn't want to be the one to say that they should have been censored over it. Not everybody is a traditiona…

But that's not actually how it worked out. Gay marriage didn't go from an unpopular stance to a popular one throughout the 2000s by displays like this. If anything, they were used as ammunition by people strongly against gay marriage in order to slow the change in public opinion.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/07/08/gay-rites-are-civil-ri...

First you show the world you exist and convince your friends it's worth trying to change things, then you convince the moderates, then you win the fight, then you wait for your bitter enemies to die because they'll never be convinced but at least their kids are open to new ideas.

Pissing off your bitter enemies can be hard to avoid and still get the job done.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#330
Man, this comment thread is really harshing my buzz.

So many folks here seem real eager to hype their systems and methods for ensuring all this oh-so easily identifiable misinformation has no route to most, which when implemented would stop this huge threat to our civilization. Typing up their clever ideas, full of good intentions (not being sarcastic, my default presumption is you all mean well), each author implicitly assumes their superiority over the masses who are so easily duped into believing awful and dangerous mistruths based on a few headlines boosted on Twitter. The mindset, stripped of all the complications and rhetoric and real positive intent, boils down to this: "These poor fools are completely lost, already in a world of hurt, and their naivety threatens all we hold dear, and so we must protect them from themselves."

Already in this thread, all the usual quibbles & arguments for & against this particular form of censorship are being studiously re-litigated. I feel strongly enough to write internet comments about very few issues and my feelings in favour of free speech fundamentalism are making it difficult to stay out of the fray. But I will restrain myself--not because it's a bad thing to do, but just because the ROI on everyone's time is so low, considering the tiny likelihood that all these words spilled out here will change even one mind.

Instead, I will ask a question that thus far has not been raised, and that I think is fundamental to this issue:

Q: What problems are we trying to solve here?

It seems that somewhere in the recent past (if I had to ballpark it, I'd say this all began to rise sometime around 8 Nov 2016) basically everyone in society came to the agreement that misinformation is running rampant, so rampant it may be the #2 item trafficked on the web, King Porn secure in his crown. Not only do we all seem to agree that misinformation is everywhere, but we all seem to also agree that this misinformation's impact is a massive threat to our society--the camel's legs are shaking under the strain, and Zuck's machine just keeps throwing straw.

This seems quite bizarre to me. Can someone here who's proposed one of these Democracy Protection Apparatuses tell me what it is y'all're trying to fix?

Make no mistake--I am quite aware that basically every public communications channel, not just the web but every channel, is under pressure from a constant flood of messaging aimed at literally changing minds, changing what and how we all think about this concern or that. I am quite well apprised of how the anti-vaxxers spread their wild, unbelievable propaganda, leveraging facebook moms' groups and instagram knitting forums to spread their evil & subversive messages. I know all about how the wily Ruskies have become the world's greatest social media influencers imaginable, who can take a shoestring budget that couldn't cover a major campaign's one day hotel spend and swing the most important election on earth.

Of course, as with the printing press and radio and television and fax machines and even pagers, I completely believe, based on solid evidence, that power factions attempt to leverage all broadly-adopted comms channels to their own selfish ends. I'm not denying that.

But can anyone here clearly identify what problem is right now such a huge concern that we should cheer on a corporation--one that wields power over our lives like no other ever has--as it unilaterally decides what we can and cannot here?

I mean, Susan's big reason here has been laid out explicitly: The 'rony pandemic is of such great concern that our ears should be blocked off from any sound that doesn't emanate from Official Authority, in this case, the WHO, an organization which five months ago nobody cared about at all and now everyone knows is about as credible as The National Enquirer (todo: insert BatBoy joke).

I mean, to me it is clearly obvious that accepting censorship is a huge risk. I'm not crazy, I don't think there should be literally zero restriction on free speech. The world would be a mess of scams were fraud permissible, for instance. But the risks censorship brings are huge and asymmetric--only us little people suffer when the surveillance and enforcement mechanisms censorship requires are abused. The wealthy and connected will always have more access to information than we do. When the abuse happens, it will always be to their benefit, because they either are the censors themselves or they control the censors. As we stand to lose the most when censorship is abused, we should have an extremely high bar for any justification for it. (Just think about that phrase, "dangerous information," for a second--we're not talking nuclear launch codes, we're talking questioning public policy, this is what Susan thinks is dangerous. Clearly she thinks very little of us.)

Censorship is power. Actually, censorship is the root of the power hierarchy. It's the most important tool in the shed, as a tractor is to a farmer so is censorship to Team Elite.

They want to control our minds. And many people in here are cheering them on.

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