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YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

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Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hold this absolutest view of free speech, does that mean you don't believe that fraud should be a crime? I am allowed to just blatantly lie about anything under the cover of free speech, right? What about libel or slander? Can I say that brenden2 is a murderer, and make a website with photoshopped pictures of you killing people? Free speech has limits, and telling blatant lies meant to mislead people is one of…

Uhhh... fraud has legal definition, as does libel - these are _civil_ issues not _criminal_. That being said, the right to actually say the words is still protected and nobody is allowed to take that right away.

Fraud is absolutely a criminal issue.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#282
post #74
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just be aware that it's a double edged sword. Mass acceptance of censorship makes it easy to stifle societal progress by designating ideas which you disagree with as extremist content. We are lucky that the people currently at the helm of tech industry happen to hold mostly liberal views that we broadly agree with. If that was not the case, the same argument could have been used by them to suppress many left-wing/pro…

If you prove that views are damaging, you are not entitled to protections in any shape or form.

Are you making a moral statement, or asserting the current state of the law in the US, which is the jurisdiction at issue?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#283
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe in shining a light on them I hear this a lot. Light is the best disinfectant. What evidence do you have for this? I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. However, I have repeatedly seen the opposite: Sharing bad ideas increases their audience, increases ignorance, hate, fear, and human suffering. You're looking at an article describing th…

> I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. Exactly. Despite the claims of the piles of misguided comments below, there has never been any such thing as a public "marketplace of ideas". At best, there's a used car dealership. Just about anybody with the slightest bit of cleverness and free time can convince any trusting person of anything whatsoever, n…

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Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Do you have evidence that the truth more often than not win over lies?" We have a myriad of evidence that societies that suppress the truth for "the public good" don't go in a desirable direction or end well.

Are you saying that the truth is "Covid-19 is caused by 5-g towers"?

That's an example of a very bizarre view that seems to have almost no chance of being right and almost no evidence in its favor. And presumably many truths sounded weirder (less plausible) than that in past societies, and many truths are going to sound weirder than that in future societies.

It's harder to say this because of the implied criticism of the common sense and rationality of people now living (including everyone in this conversation), but perhaps there are many truths that sound weirder than that to us, too.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#285

Just some food for thought. If youtube was around in the past and doing this stuff they could have deleted videos in support of the following: (these all started as fringe beliefs(1)) Interracial marriage Gay marriage Smoking causes lung cancer (1) interesting topical read and it has sources for these at the end https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/09/american-brain.html

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Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#286
post #220

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I agree anti Vaxers are ridiculous. But just to play devils advocate. What if there ever was a dangerous vaccine out there, wouldn’t we want people to be able to speak out? Honestly I don’t have any solutions. I don’t like either option.

There indeed were a few dangerous vaccines, about three generations ago. That's exactly why we have the elaborate clinical trial system today: they stop potentially unsafe vaccines all the time . A large fraction of the COVID vaccines might go this way. Nobody is against banning unsafe vaccines, but some are for banning people from spreading baseless, conspiratorial anti-vax bullshit.

There have been issues more recently with vaccine safety. Or at least, there were enough lawsuits to start frightening off vaccine manufacturers. Since 1986, however, they've been insulated from lawsuits under federal law:[0]

> The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, ..., as amended, created the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system. It provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement.

> The VICP was established after lawsuits against vaccine manufacturers and healthcare providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce vaccination rates. The Program began accepting petitions (also called claims) in 1988.

The current anti-vaccination movement began largely over concern that thiomersal preservative in many childhood vaccines was causing autism. Although multiple epidemiological studies indicated that there was no appreciable risk, "the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine makers to remove thiomersal from vaccines as quickly as possible as a precautionary measure", and it was ~gone by 2001.[1]

0) https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/about/index.html

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_and_vaccines

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#287
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe in shining a light on them I hear this a lot. Light is the best disinfectant. What evidence do you have for this? I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. However, I have repeatedly seen the opposite: Sharing bad ideas increases their audience, increases ignorance, hate, fear, and human suffering. You're looking at an article describing th…

> I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. Exactly. Despite the claims of the piles of misguided comments below, there has never been any such thing as a public "marketplace of ideas". At best, there's a used car dealership. Just about anybody with the slightest bit of cleverness and free time can convince any trusting person of anything whatsoever, n…

>I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea

Sure but who decides what ideas are bad or immoral or harmful? Everyone pretends like this is some simple problem to solve but come on. It's incredibly complex and it seems that both sides of this argument that want to anoint an Arbiter of Truth are only okay with it insofar as it's their Arbiter.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#288
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would of been better to leave it there, but had a disclaimer warning that couldn't be skipped akin to the old piracy warnings on purchased movie DVD's. You also won't stop such types of content from appearing on said platforms, less popular but still they will appear, get popular and get closed down. But that's an issue with some types of content that all social media platforms have. No solution will be 100%, let'…

The key component is them having access to a platform with global reach. Exposing and debating hasn't been working all that well, has it? These 5G conspiracy theories are absurdly easy to bust. Yet here we are, with people attacking 5G towers and threatening employees. 9/11 conspiracy theories are still popular. Moon landing conspiracy theories. Debating in an of itself doesn't work. Humans aren't perfectly logical.…

>ugh there are literally people who think the Earth is flat. There are literally people who think the Earth is flat!

True, should they ban that as well? Though they havn't been going around flattening mountains or any other harm, so there is that.

Not all those who believe conspiracy stuff, act upon it. Some will, those are more the ones who will engage in lesser, more niche platforms in which such content will run, along with more such content. Thus, driving many who will want to watch it to be exposed to other platforms in which such content is less tacked as more echo chambers and this is not something to be overlooked.

Thing is, whatever you do, there will always be some and with so many humans, the odds of there being more than one is a given. Do you ridicule/educate in public or cast aside to dark corners in which they can carry on unchecked.

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#289
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But under your logic, Hitler was not the problem, and should have been free to say whatever he liked, correct?

People are responsible for their own actions. "Hitler told me to" or "David Icke told me to" do not excuse anything someone does. I believe we established particularly after WWII that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense to committing atrocities. You might also want to remember that one of the first things Hitler did after getting power was to outlaw any opposition parties and violently break up meeti…

So Hitler was guilty of no crimes then? It would have been a good, or at least morally obligated thing that nobody stopped him, yes?

Re: YouTube has deleted the account of David Icke

#290
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never seen a bad or immoral or harmful idea die out when more people learn about it and scrutinize it. Leaded gasoline, phlogiston, cold fusion, phrenology, scientific racism, basically the entire history of the progress of science. But let's also not forget that you're asking for a list of discredited ideas, so you wouldn't have heard of them, by definition, if things are working as they should, because they'…

> Leaded gasoline, phlogiston, cold fusion, phrenology, scientific racism, basically the entire history of the progress of science. The progress of science wasn't driven by nutjobs delivering spittle-flecked rants on Youtube. Almost all of it was driven by careful peer review of ideas -- which is the exact opposite of unrestricted speech.

"E pur si muove...!"
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