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Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

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Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#41
post #4

In the absense of capital punishment for corporations, fines can and will be seen as merely the cost of doing business. It feels like the only way to address this is by holding the decision makers (executives) responsible, but that would require piercing the corporate veil[1], which has disappointingly low precedent in the US [1]Edit: piercing the veil refers to holding shareholders responsible, which is a different…

> fines can and will be seen as merely the cost of doing business

There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

The answer, of course, is that fines can be increased to the point where businesses change.

Just recently, Amazon was forced to completely shut down in France because the level of fines made it impossible to run their business at all.

Businesses respond to incentives. Fines are an incentive. They can be set at any level. It's the responsibility of government to figure out the right level.

Also, finding the executives responsible for any decision is not nearly as clear-cut as you might suppose. Ultimately shareholders are responsible. Then they elect a board which elects the C-suite which hires the VP's who staff their divisions and so on. And approvals happen at every level but with varying degrees of granularity and attention.

The C-suite will collectively sign off on a strategic plan for the following year. Different members are aware of implementation details at different levels. There's very often no clear "the buck stops here" for any policy except ultimately with the shareholders themselves. (A manager approved the plan, but final sign-off was with their VP, but that was part of the package presented to the CEO, who brought it to the board...) Which is why fines work well -- they punish the shareholders.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#42
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me years ago I stumbled on an essay by Richard Posner ex Chief Justice of the 7th Circuit. In it he discussed his belief that. a) The only way to keep poor people in line is the threat of prison. b) Middle class people can be kept in line by the threat of fines. c) However the wealthy are kept in line by the threat of losing their good reputation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Posner

From that list/summary it almost sounds like he's trying to protect the rich by saying that the typical forms of "keeping people in line", don't work with the wealthy. Maybe he should have been more sincere by explaining how the wealthy can buy or trade their way out of trouble, by unduly (or at least unfairly) influencing the legal system to their advantage.

He was saying fines and prison aren't usually needed to keep the wealthy from doing bad things. Poor people have neither reputation or money to lose so prison is the only way to motivate them. Which tells you how much Posner knows about actual poor people. For most poor people their good reputation is the only thing of value they have.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#43

It's interesting that the site presenting this story has, by their own declaration, 382 different marketing-related cookies, which you are required to accept with no alternatives if you want to browse the site. I'm not trying to say that they are not entitled to report on FB's privacy violations or something, they are reporters and it is very good that they are doing so. It's just amazing to what extent journalism si…

I think it's the opposite, there are so many trackers because each time they sell it their user's data parmys so little .

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the absense of capital punishment for corporations That's an interesting analogy that I've never considered, given we treat corporations as personlike entities. Why don't we have a capital punishment equivalent? Perhaps our rules regarding social harm are too loose. But I'm not sure that I would trust a government, especially our government, to make and enforce the right rules. In any case our legislation despera…

"Why don't we" Way too many people ask "why don't we" before figuring out what they are talking about. Arthur Andersen got the death penalty. If you point that out, people will argue with you, no the death penalty would be something different. It doesn't matter what you think a word or phrase means, you should have a good idea of what you mean by it before advocating it.

What? I'm identifying a need and a possible solution. Now we have a civil discussion with the goal of exchanging information.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#45
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the best two things that can happen in my opinion (based on a book called 'the chickenshit club') are 0. make corporations admit wrongdoing. almsot every one of them that gets out of a protracted settlement like this without having to own any responsibility at the corporate level for this. They can take the fine. They cannot take the risk to their business and loss of reputation in the market. 1. Stop offering settle…

The reason you don't have crazy nonsense like this is that it would be a field-day for political persecution. Prefect for corruption. A politician with clout doesn't like what some CEO said, or that he bankrolled your opponent? Destroy their business by setting the prosecutors on them, jail their CEO, destroy their business by seizing the cashflow, and then 2 years down the line, charges dropped. Whoops.

Well this is why the judiciary should be independent, not political as in the US

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you don't have crazy nonsense like this is that it would be a field-day for political persecution. Prefect for corruption. A politician with clout doesn't like what some CEO said, or that he bankrolled your opponent? Destroy their business by setting the prosecutors on them, jail their CEO, destroy their business by seizing the cashflow, and then 2 years down the line, charges dropped. Whoops.

So if making people responsible for what their companies do is, as you put it "crazy nonsense", what would you suggest instead?

You can make them responsible, just keep innocent until proven guilty in mind.

No reason to do asset seizures or withhold bail or any of the other things he's listed as necessary to hold them responsible. Those are extreme measures that they use in the drug war because they've been losing it for decades and are giving up on the principal of fair laws in a desperate attempt to look effective.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#48
post #4

In the absense of capital punishment for corporations, fines can and will be seen as merely the cost of doing business. It feels like the only way to address this is by holding the decision makers (executives) responsible, but that would require piercing the corporate veil[1], which has disappointingly low precedent in the US [1]Edit: piercing the veil refers to holding shareholders responsible, which is a different…

Rather than a outright death sentence for a corp, something like a 30 day "timeout" would be interesting. No network traffic for 30 days, in or out. Would a 30 day loss of service be equivalent to a death sentence? We know certain companies can survive hours to up to a day without service just due to tech glitches. After 30 days, people would be suffering withdrawal like symptoms, but would start using the service as soon as it came back. It's not like a FB replacement could start up in 30 days and acquire their users.

This of course would incur collateral damage from companies that "require" offending service to operate.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#49
post #54

Compare HN title with actual titles given by the author/publisher: "og:title" content="Federal Judge Stunned by Facebook's `Unscrupulous' Violation of the Law, Warns of Much Deeper Problems" Judge Timothy Kelly Stunned by Facebook's Violation of Law One could argue the HN title suggests the important point of the news story is that the settlement was accepted despite "stunning" privacy violations. One could argue the…

For the record, I submitted the article with the original title (the text before the comma, due to HN's 80 character limit). The title was later edited by an HN moderator.

Re: Judge approves Facebook's settlement with FTC over ‘stunning’ privacy violations

#50
post #5

it's frustrating. 5 billion for a fine over the course of 8 years of operation? They made $17 billion this quarter .

Made? Revenue is not profit. Their net income was just under $5B this quarter

Edit: quarter, not half

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