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Valve drops VR support for macOS

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Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#261

Post by pjmlp »

rleigh wrote: post #215
Jasper_ wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The team that developed Mantle got ignored by AMD management, who then left and subsequently got hired by Apple to develop Metal. Vulkan's release was held up for over a year by AMD management and red tape, which was by then already a year later than Metal's release.

None of that matters one iota. I'm not going to spend valuable time and resources on a non-standard graphics API for a platform with anaemic graphics hardware. Instead, I'm going to target Windows and Linux with Vulkan or OpenGL. If I do support MacOS, it will be via MoltenVK, and it will be a second tier platform. From my point of view, by dropping standard OpenGL they have turned their platform into a second-class…

Then you will only target Linux.

OpenGL and Vulkan only happen to work on Windows via the ICD driver model introduced in OpenGL 1.1, which Microsoft hasn't yet bothered to remove.

Instead they aren't supporting it on UWP and Win32 sandbox model, which only allow DirectX.

Microsoft's way forward is also to build OpenGL wrappers on top of DirectX like ANGLE.

https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/in-the-works-opencl-a...

And then there are the game consoles.

Khronos has just messed up providing SDKs that are at the same productivity level as commercial APIs.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#262

Post by pjmlp »

jonahrd wrote: post #71
olliej wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you run direct3d on your Linux and Mac systems?

I can run OpenGL and Vulkan on my Windows system. MacOS is the only platform that has officially deprecated OpenGL support, and there is no plan for any future Vulkan support.

Windows only has support on legacy Win32 thanks to the ICD driver model. Vulkan and OpenGL aren't supported on Win32 and UWP sandboxes.

Game consoles never had OpenGL support, other than a timid attempt from Sony with GL ES 1.0 using Cg as shading language.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#263

Post by banachtarski »

paxys wrote: post #65
Danieru wrote: post #6

Mac is a horrible platform to support for video game developers. Speaking from experience the issues are: 1. No cross platform builds allowed. We can compile to Windows, Linux, Android, Switch, PS4, Xbox One all from one windows build machine. 2. Shifting sand of non-backwards compatibility. Notice how of the above list everyone except Linux and Android have solid back compat stories. Video games are in development f…

Agree with everything except > 4. Culture. Steve Jobs disliked games, it shows in Apple's support. IMO their lack of support has less to do with hate and more that they just didn't find value in that demographic. No one is making money off gaming hardware. On the other hand Apple has put in a LOT of effort into iOS gaming. Steve Jobs himself had multiple games showcased in his keynotes.

This is the type of bullshit comment that makes me login and bother replying. Anyone in the industry that has needed to work with Apple knows their stance on games is inane. This is in spite of the fact that games make the lion’s share of revenue on their app store and they know it. This in spite of the fact that the majority of games on their iOS platform suck. Games is really not in their dna and boy does it show.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#264

Post by pjmlp »

f1refly wrote: post #205
eschaton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is: Design your game for the systems the majority of the users who will want to play it—after you’ve marketed it to them to them—will have. Don’t start with system requirements first and make a game targeting that because you want to show everyone how elite a hacker you are. If Sony didn’t require games achieve 60FPS at 1080p on PlayStation 4 before they’d allow them on the platform, most of the developers…

Yeah well but then your game looks like garbage for most of the people who will proceed to buy some competing product that's more up to their standards. If you want to make a game and sell it only to the low end mac audience go for it, just don't expect to get your investment back. I don't expect game devs to target my 2011 thinkpad in the 2020 gaming market, that'd be ridiculous.

Apparently plenty of game studios seem to happy to target the lame iGPUs from Intel on PC side.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#265

Post by rleigh »

pjmlp wrote: post #261
rleigh wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that matters one iota. I'm not going to spend valuable time and resources on a non-standard graphics API for a platform with anaemic graphics hardware. Instead, I'm going to target Windows and Linux with Vulkan or OpenGL. If I do support MacOS, it will be via MoltenVK, and it will be a second tier platform. From my point of view, by dropping standard OpenGL they have turned their platform into a second-class…

Then you will only target Linux. OpenGL and Vulkan only happen to work on Windows via the ICD driver model introduced in OpenGL 1.1, which Microsoft hasn't yet bothered to remove. Instead they aren't supporting it on UWP and Win32 sandbox model, which only allow DirectX. Microsoft's way forward is also to build OpenGL wrappers on top of DirectX like ANGLE. https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://devblogs.micr…

So long as the API works, I really don't care about the implementation details.

I also don't care about Microsoft's UWP and sandboxing stuff.

They might have a desire to take the platform in that direction. But I have no obligation to follow, and if they want to retain application developers they won't be able to simply cut us off. We've always got the option of abandoning Windows entirely if they make it too inconvenient and troublesome to develop for. It's not like we don't have a precedent for abandoning MacOS X as a top tier platform for exactly those reasons.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#267

Post by pjmlp »

rleigh wrote: post #265
pjmlp wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you will only target Linux. OpenGL and Vulkan only happen to work on Windows via the ICD driver model introduced in OpenGL 1.1, which Microsoft hasn't yet bothered to remove. Instead they aren't supporting it on UWP and Win32 sandbox model, which only allow DirectX. Microsoft's way forward is also to build OpenGL wrappers on top of DirectX like ANGLE. https://github.com/microsoft/angle/wiki https://devblogs.micr…

So long as the API works, I really don't care about the implementation details. I also don't care about Microsoft's UWP and sandboxing stuff. They might have a desire to take the platform in that direction. But I have no obligation to follow, and if they want to retain application developers they won't be able to simply cut us off. We've always got the option of abandoning Windows entirely if they make it too inconve…

Yes they will, Windows 10X only allows for sandboxed software.

"How Windows 10X runs UWP and Win32 apps"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztrmrIlgbIc&list=PLWZJrkeLOr...

MSIX

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/msix/overview

> Apps that are packaged using MSIX run in a lightweight app container.

Yes, Win32 can still choose between both models in current versions, depending on Windows 10X reception, I bet it might eventually change.

Sandboxing resistant developers are always free to keep their Windows XP or 7 copy, I guess.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#268

Post by SahAssar »

eschaton wrote: post #99
kroltan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just run macOS on a VM As far as I know it is against the terms of service to run Mac OS on non-Apple hardware, so you can't just run a macOS VM. > Hardware isn't horrible from Apple. It's just more expensive for macOS. Is that not the same thing, effectively? For a given buying power, a player that chooses mac will have objectively poorer hardware. Yes, there are a few capable rigs for Apple systems, but they are…

When games are targeted to the Macs potential users have, they have always sold reasonably well. Back when the Mac market was far smaller, and it was much more difficult to develop a game, developers did OK. If you start with the premise that you should just barely achieve 60fps with all effects enabled on this year’s top-of-the-line PC video card you’re artificially constraining your market. Make your game fun and m…

> When games are targeted to the Macs potential users have, they have always sold reasonably well.

The mac market has always been small, and the supply of games even smaller. So that supply has sold pretty well and for example Aspyr and Bungie made pretty OK money off of that.

If the mac supply of games was more competitive I'd wonder if those economics work anymore.

Re: Valve drops VR support for macOS

#269

Post by baby »

wpietri wrote: post #258
baby wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try to reason all you want, the fact is that today there is a Half Life game that is only playable on VR. It's a significant fact.

I am not denying the fact. I'm saying it doesn't prove that VR has gone mainstream. It's a valiant attempt on Valve's part to make that happen, but it's just an attempt.

We’ll see in a year.
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