Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it • Hacker News Board

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#521

Post by s3cur3 » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:20 AM UTC

kikoreis wrote: post #513

shock wrote: post #421

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer'…

It's probably not a surprise to you, but this is a hotly debated topic inside Canonical. And I apologize for that thread, as it really doesn't represent our best attempt at external debate. Changing a paradigm usually involves pushing the envelope and breaking some existing assumptions; systemd is everybody's favorite example of that in the Linux world. The root of this issue with snaps is the trade-off between built…

This is a calm, measured perspective on a hot-button emotional issue. Thanks for that. :)

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#522

Post by pedrocx486 » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:22 AM UTC

rlpb wrote: post #130

capableweb wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents, you don't have to agree but thought I'd just add a different perspective. I prefer my own package manager (pacman) over snaps for the following reasons: 1) I like to upgrade on my own schedule. I use my computer for work, and I cannot have things break in the middle of the day or in the morning, just as I get started with work. I usually save upgrades for when I less things to do, so that in case stuff…

> I like to upgrade on my own schedule. I use my computer for work, and I cannot have things break in the middle of the day or in the morning, just as I get started with work. You can arrange snapd to update on your preferred schedule. What you cannot do is defer updates forever.

>What you cannot do is defer updates forever.

Says who? AFAIK the person who paid my hardware (me) is who is in command.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#523

Post by beckler » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #319

beckler wrote: post #22

We tried to make an internal IoT device using Ubuntu Core and snaps because the capabilities of it were very promising. We started a PoC and about halfway through we hit a major roadblock. Our enterprise network does certificate substitution, and Ubuntu Core absolutely does not allow you to install your own certificates globally, so our devices would never receive updates. We tried EVERY hack we could think up, short…

> [..] didn't seem interested in our fixing our complaints without a massive amount of money [..] Why is asking for money wrong? You want the feature, why shouldn't you pay for it.

Nothing wrong with it, but we couldn't get any funding approved until the PoC was successful, and we couldn't be successful without the feature.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#524

Post by guug » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

kikoreis wrote: post #518

ultrarunner wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We work at remote sites on cell connections. Part of the reason we moved to Ubuntu from Windows was the ability to control data usage, which is expensive. Automatic updates quickly become a significant slice of the bill when random decisions like these get pushed on users. Ubuntu was supposed to help prevent us from needing to chase this.

FWIW, for this very reason, there is refresh.metered=hold, as I note in my comment earlier in the thread.

Will setting `refresh.metered=hold` prevent snap updates indefinitely?

Can I mark all my network connections as metered?

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#525

Post by macintux » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:24 AM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #279

Legogris wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is getting OT, but could you elaborate on your issues with systemd? I’m genuinely curious. I often see people complain but haven’t seen or experienced specifics apart from it being complex and having higher learning curve than initd. (I don’t know if you’ve tried MX Linux BTW; Debian derivative without systemd by default) I will never defend pulseaudio though, that’s a horrible mess.

My first experience with systemd was when they implemented a default that would kill processes when a user logs off. This may be acceptable in some single-user desktop environments, but it is absolutely unacceptable in any server environment. If I am using tmux, emacs --daemon, nohup, or any other custom program that catches SIGHUP, then it is inexcusable for systemd to escalate to sending SIGKILL. I know that there…

> ... they implemented a default that would kill processes when a user logs off

Is that still the default? That’s horrific.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#526

Post by verelo » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:25 AM UTC

So theres one huge issue with Snap no one in my circles is talking about - i dont want my server changing without me controlling it! This seems like a) Someone could get an update in without my knowledge and it'll get pushed to me without my consent b) if the code changes, i want to control that, if a package changes, i also want to control that....its my server, i want to control it all! On a desktop, maybe I could handle this, but for a server, its absolutely a no go. wtf are they thinking?

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#527

Post by jasonjayr » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:26 AM UTC

littlestymaar wrote: post #363

m-p-3 wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At that point I'll just use Debian.

Debian used not to work easily on hardware that require proprietary drivers, did it change recently ? I left Ubuntu almost ten years ago, after 5 years of using it, when they started using MIR instead of Gnome2 and I replaced it with Linux Mint and I haven't looked back. This whole snap thing looks like the new weird decision made by Canonical to make their faithful users leave :/

Debian runs on everything I've come in contact with, or virtualized.

Debian's problem is that it's stodgy updating policy means 'Stable' is still on 4.19, things like Wireguard require a simple, but odd procedure to request apt pull packages from newer releases, and most of the copy/pasteable examples out there assume Ubuntu, and their versions/customization to critical infrastructure packages.

IMHO, the stodgy updates make it a perfect candidate for server based software. Personally, my Debian know-how makes it great for my desktop, and It has not failed for my use case: Development, Sysadmin, Browsers, Steam (or any other games releasing linux versions)

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#528

Post by pnako » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:29 AM UTC

ncmncm wrote: post #468

pnako wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally it's not the drivers but the firmware for those devices, i.e. code that runs inside the device. I think it's an over-zealous position from Debian not to redistribute firmware. Even systems that are very strict about licensing, like OpenBSD, redistribute firmware, because they have some common sense.

Debian does, in fact, distribute firmware. They are just careful to ensure that you are getting it deliberately, and not accidentally.

Yeah they should do that with the libc, keyboard drivers, etc. as well.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#529

Post by dcow » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #512

shock wrote: post #421

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer'…

I have to use Ubuntu 18.04 for some things and even with a minimal installation, I found some things phoned home or pushed changes. I could remove some packages, like ubuntu-report or unattended-upgrades, but some seemed to be intertwined with other packages in a (purposeful?) labyrinth of nested dependencies. They made themselves critical and uninstalling would break or cripple other fundamental system components. S…

I think there’s a proliferation of well meaning but ultimately _uncultured_ developers (perhaps some are lazy, but I don‘t think that’s the main problem). It’s almost inevitable as software, and internet culture, has itself proliferated. Seeing how businesses make decisions with such abysmal disregard for anything that puts users in control probably only serves to normalize the mentality further. But at the end if the day the problem really is that people don’t speak with their feet. I find it darkly humorous when someone complains about online privacy yet in the next sentence verbs _google_ or is still using their gmail from 15 years ago or hasn't switched to a privacy respecting browser or would never consider a librem device because it has previous gen specs. Software that gives users freedom and respects their privacy is not the default. Good software is hard to find. Too often software is measured solely on how good it looks as an electron app. So how about the next time you hear someone raking the GPL through the mud you help educate them. If you encounter a business leader deciding to cookie everyone because it lets them target the CISO of Oracle with personalized crafted ads, refuse to acquiesce. Not only donate to the EFF but actually participle. When asked what to do about the widening software culture gap at BSides SF, John Perry Barlow reminded everyone that education is the only real solution.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#530

Post by thekyle » Sun, May 03, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

qidydl wrote: post #449

shock wrote: post #421

I am very diligent about applying updates as soon as I'm able and generally read the changelogs of the updates I'm applying in Ubuntu's Software Updater. One thing I will not do is willingly allow somebody else a way to deploy and execute code on my computer without my say so (which snap is). After reading the whole thread at https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... and seeing Gustavo Niemeyer'…

I'm surprised that something like routing software is/was being distributed via snap instead of as a Docker container; snap seems much more targeted towards end-user workstations than to servers.

I always felt that snap was designed for servers with desktop being an afterthought (thus why so many things still don't work in snap, ex: sys gtk themes). Flatpak on the other hand was designed desktop first and barely works for server stuff. But the Flatpak experience on the desktop is vastly superior to the snap one IMO.