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Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

jatan.blog

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Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My two cents, you don't have to agree but thought I'd just add a different perspective. I prefer my own package manager (pacman) over snaps for the following reasons: 1) I like to upgrade on my own schedule. I use my computer for work, and I cannot have things break in the middle of the day or in the morning, just as I get started with work. I usually save upgrades for when I less things to do, so that in case stuff…

My position is not that certain users would prefer to update on their own schedule. Of course there are. Or that new updates sometimes break things and that's a hassle. Of course they do and it is. The problem is if you want to distribute an important security update, what do you do? Ask everyone nicely to upgrade? How? Again, what % of users will manually update their software? Not a lot. For #2, that seems like a r…

Auto-updating isn’t the only issue. I’m a stickler for security updates; I’m that crazy guy who always reboots his computer immediately whenever there’s an update. I like that Windows forces updates.

Even I recognize that this doesn’t make sense in the Linux world, though. Ubuntu is trying to be something it’s not—they’re trying to appeal to a new demographic, and, in doing so, driving away their existing users.

Even with my stance on auto-updating, snaps are a problem for me because I mostly use Linux in the context of servers. Like it or not, that’s where Linux has the largest market share; Android aside, Linux’s consumer market share is negligible.

In that context, snaps have problems:

- I can’t have my servers updating on their own. Security updates rarely break things, but most other updates need testing.

- I use auto-scaling. That means servers need to come up quickly when load increases. If a bunch of new servers come online and all decide to update, that’s worse than no servers coming online.

- I don’t want or need a sandbox. In a cloud environment, the server is the sandbox.

- Environments and server states need to be reproducible for testing and auditing. If I’m doing a post-mortem, I need the software on the relevant image to be in the exact same state as when the problem occurred.

- Performance is critical. I’m already paying AWS for sandboxing in the form of many small EC2 instances; I don’t need the additional overhead of snaps. I’m not working with bare metal.

All of these issues could be resolved, and I wouldn’t object to this experiment running in a non-LTS or desktop-only release. But it is truly an experiment: snaps aren’t ready for prime time. My options are to pay Canonical for extended support for old software, wait it out and hope the issues are sorted before I stop receiving security updates, or switch to something like Alpine or Debian.

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who loves automatic updates, generally prefers systemd, rather liked Unity, and didn’t see what all the fuss was with Upstart and Mir:

- systemd works pretty damn well and is a big improvement, although it has its hiccups

- Unity was fine. It looked nice out-of-the-box and wasn’t a resource hog.

- Upstart usually worked well enough, though it sometimes had reliability issues.

- Mir never really saw the light of day, so it didn’t matter.

Snaps are where I draw the line. They might be the future, but they’re not ready for the present. And that’s not for lack of trying on my part—I had no trouble embracing Upstart and later systemd.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#242

> Auto-updating of snaps can only be deferred at best, until at some point, like Windows, it auto-updates anyway. Even on metered connections, snaps auto-update anyway after some time. This attitude is obnoxious. Yes, not everybody is on a metered connection or running a mission-critical system, but some are, and it is hardly unreasonable to accommodate them.

This is a hard problem. And Microsoft didn't have a choice. Given an option regular users will never update their computers, perhaps partly due to fear of what they don't understand, fear of change, or maybe due to past bad update experiences. I witness this in my mom with technology all the time. Every time there's a popup she mini-panics, and she has trained herself to click close every time she sees something she…

I understand that Microsoft see the large number of vulnerable machines on the internet as a problem thay they are responsible for and the forced update as a necessary solution.

Nevertheless, I dual-boot my laptop and use Windows almost only for presentations. Whenever connections to external devices and other OS shenanigans force me to reboot my machine when I'm in the speaker position and the dreaded forced update cycle begins I swear I'll never touch that ugly OS ever again. And I already developed routine of checking for updates and booting in advance, but somehow this still happens from time time.

I guess there's need to be a special "seriously not now pretty please" button.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#243
post #27

Not sure what was the thinking. I am, as of this moment, in the process of migrating my laptop to from Ubuntu to Debian.

It is worth noting you can basically get all of the benefit of using ubuntu(a good gnome experience, ppa's, etc) but without any of the snap stuff by installing pop os. It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users, because it is still fully featured and a great overall experience even for a more adept linux user.

> It's a bit unfortunate that pop os is branded as something basically for scrubs and new linux users

Is it though? https://pop.system76.com/

> Pop!_OS is an operating system for STEM and creative professionals who use their computer as a tool to discover and create.

Okay but who is STEM specifically? Further down it mentions "Deep Learning" "Engineering" (Mentioned apps are all for software dev) "Media Production" "Bioinformatics".

I don't know about you, but to me that gives the exact opposite impression of "something basically for scrubs and new linux users".

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#244

> Auto-updating of snaps can only be deferred at best, until at some point, like Windows, it auto-updates anyway. Even on metered connections, snaps auto-update anyway after some time. This attitude is obnoxious. Yes, not everybody is on a metered connection or running a mission-critical system, but some are, and it is hardly unreasonable to accommodate them.

I'm using opensnitch[1] and it can block snap requests. Pretty nifty software, but it brings my machine to its knees unless I ``` sudo service opensnitchd restart ``` once in a while.

[1] https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You make it sound like an irrational fear but there's a real cost/benefit ratio to consider when you upgrade a machine. 95+% of users have no chance of even making this cost-benefit analysis because they cannot assess the scope or risk associated with the upgrade even if they wanted to. They have to rely on vendors making those assessments for them.

> They have to rely on vendors making those assessments for them. That's why I run Debian stable, which provides security updates and critical bugfixes for 5 years or more post-release with very limited changes otherwise. Maximized benefit, minimal cost.

That's actually untrue.

FYI -- use Debian almost exclusively, been doing so for 20+ years and love it. (Well mostly, the last 5-7 years have been rough though.)

What Debian provides, is security updates for 1 year after the next stable release. That's it.

'5 years' is via LTS is volunteer support, provided by corporate and private donations, via a corporation in France. Their goal is to extend Debian oldstable's lifespan. The entire process is absolutely not the same as updates when running Debian stable.

For example, due to its volunteer nature, companies get to decide where they 'put their money'. What packages are prioritized. Rare / unused packages may never be addressed, depending upon funding.

Use PHP? Apache? The Linux Kernel? Sure, you'll see updates! Use rare package $x, and that may not happen, even though Debian Security would handle it.

I can also tell you via experience, that QA is not quite as good as Debian proper.

Still, is it a good thing? Sure! Is it managed by the Debian security team, 100% embracing all of its methods, and so on? NO.

I felt it is important for you (and others) to know this.

It's not as stable as Debian, not managed by Debian, and should ONLY be used as a stop-gap. You want stable?

Stay on Debian managed security updates!

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#246
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There‘s a simple reason: speed. Have you ever tried to use WSL 1 with npm? I doubt do, because it just takes 10 times more time than on „real“ linux. Also, it‘s way easier to work with multiple desktops and windows position better than on Windows where it seems that they are opening always there where you don‘t look. There are also quite a lot of others, IMHO.

FWIW I tried Windows as a desktop two weeks ago, and gave up on it precisely _because_ the implementation of window snapping and positioning was so bad. I have a very wide monitor and need a way of splitting the screen into thirds, which Windows seems to lack.

You might try the PowerToys. With FancyZones you can either use one of the presets or freely define your window snap zones:

> https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#247
Not sure whats the point of using snaps in a stable OS release, but they are fairly easy to remove: https://www.kevin-custer.com/blog/disabling-snaps-in-ubuntu-...

ie: I thought they were more useful for installing a random app that is not supported by your OS... Is it easier to include a snap then it is to create a regular package? or are there any other advantages?

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#248

I really dislike the way snaps create disk partitions. When I run $ df I want to see what I defined during OS installation, not a dozen nasty snap mounts. An application misusing fundamental system features like this feels like a violation of some UNIX principle.

Very much agreed, the fact that nobody at Ubuntu noticed that the extra mount points is a best annoying is kinda impressive. I’m not blaming Ubuntu, nor Snaps for this issue, but we had a new server come online and our monitoring noticed that two or three partition was already at 100% usage. Those where snap mount point.

I don't use Ubuntu on servers but I imagine snaps would cause monitors like Munin and Logwatch to freak out.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#249

So I run Kubuntu on my work laptop (X1 Carbon) and just upgraded to 20.04 last weekend. I had a vague idea there were different competing standards for "linux apps that work across distribution" but didn't know people had such a problem with snap. It just seemed like a useful tool for installing proprietary stuff that wouldn't normally be packaged by the distribution. I just checked and the snaps I have that aren't f…

There are some downsides (footprint, forced updates, speed, etc.), though depending on what you're installing those may not be deal-breakers. I'm using plain Ubuntu 20.04 and I tend to install stuff via apt and not snap in general (but I am fine with installing non-essential things via snap). The software store has a subtle toggle in the upper right for choosing to install a package as a snap or via apt when both are available.

Re: Ubuntu 20.04 LTS’ snap obsession has snapped me off of it

#250

> Auto-updating of snaps can only be deferred at best, until at some point, like Windows, it auto-updates anyway. Even on metered connections, snaps auto-update anyway after some time. This attitude is obnoxious. Yes, not everybody is on a metered connection or running a mission-critical system, but some are, and it is hardly unreasonable to accommodate them.

This is a hard problem. And Microsoft didn't have a choice. Given an option regular users will never update their computers, perhaps partly due to fear of what they don't understand, fear of change, or maybe due to past bad update experiences. I witness this in my mom with technology all the time. Every time there's a popup she mini-panics, and she has trained herself to click close every time she sees something she…

It's not that they do not understand what is good for them, they are simply rejecting your new features.
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